Coil-Over or Springs???
07-26-2006, 09:01 AM
#21
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 954
RE: Coil-Over or Springs???
bl1nkage,
The Tokico D specs ARE adjustable! Takes less thn 5 min to adjust them to any point from full hard ot softer then stock ride. I can't comment on the coil overs as niether myself or any buddies have ever tried a set.
Might want to browse through this thread on the D-spec. Please note that if you go with the Eibach springs, as odd as it may seem the sport kit actualy lowers your car about an inch lower then the Pro kit. 05SDI
My Tokico D-Spec and Eibach Pro spring kit install
The Tokico D specs ARE adjustable! Takes less thn 5 min to adjust them to any point from full hard ot softer then stock ride. I can't comment on the coil overs as niether myself or any buddies have ever tried a set.
Might want to browse through this thread on the D-spec. Please note that if you go with the Eibach springs, as odd as it may seem the sport kit actualy lowers your car about an inch lower then the Pro kit. 05SDI
My Tokico D-Spec and Eibach Pro spring kit install
07-26-2006, 07:34 PM
#22
4th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,123
RE: Coil-Over or Springs???
Hmmmm, coilovers are must if youre doing any kind of racing if you ask me... now the question is
what're the best possible coilovers for road courses and autocross ( don't care about practicality or rough ride, i have a daily driven this is just my for fun car aka soon to be track car)
?
what're the best possible coilovers for road courses and autocross ( don't care about practicality or rough ride, i have a daily driven this is just my for fun car aka soon to be track car)
?
07-26-2006, 08:01 PM
#24
4th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,123
RE: Coil-Over or Springs???
LOLZ11!11
um i believe coil overs are tuned to work in cordinence with each other so theyre more efficient not to mention theyre generally fully adjustable, just better operating.. i mean **** race cars use them so theyve gotta be good haha
um i believe coil overs are tuned to work in cordinence with each other so theyre more efficient not to mention theyre generally fully adjustable, just better operating.. i mean **** race cars use them so theyve gotta be good haha
07-27-2006, 05:26 PM
#26
Gentleman's Relish
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 13,090
RE: Coil-Over or Springs???
ORIGINAL: grasshopper
A) There's nothing marginal about spring tuning. When spring rate and damping are tuned together you get huge gains. Most lowering springs are a compromise to accomodate stock shocks for the layperson that dominates the market. The fact that the spring is over the damper has little to with the performance other than it's the ideal setup, so the comparison to a basic McP strut is moot.
B) The coilovers for the rear axle are most likely a contradiction. Most aftermarket coilover sets for seperate spring and shock systems use a sleeved spring in place of the standard spring so it's not really a coilover. In the end its about tuning which a live axle can benfit from just as much as a IRS.
C) All those bits are still necessary since the springs shouldn't be used to handle all the cornering force, but it isn't a crime to do so. A stronger spring and shock can negate the need for any sway bar, but it would make traction over bumps and dips problematic.
It all comes down to tuning the entire system to work optimally. Lowering springs and shocks make a vast improvement over the stock suspension, but they are still working around compromises. Some folks don't want to compromise even just to pick up a bottle of Advil from the drug store.
ORIGINAL: Sleeper05
IMHO i don't see any real benefit to a coilover system other than adjustable ride height.
a couple reasons:
a) we have macphereson-strut setups in front, so the spring is already coiling the shock. with an adjustable rate lowering spring and good adjustable shocks (eibach sportline/pro kit, and tokico d-specs for example), you get all the benefits of a coilover system minus the marginal tunability improvement of ride height/spring stiffness
b) we have solid rear axles, which move up and down as a whole unit for the most part. any bump on the left rear side will be felt to some degree on the right rear side. thus, having two springs controlling the movement of the rear axle vertically accomplishes the same thing as havingt a coilover system. the only benefit i see is the suspension response is pushed as far out on the axle as possible with a coilover, which might lend toward some form of noticeable improvement, but nothing drastic. NOW, IF WE HAD IRS this arument would be void and i would say that you would be stupid to pass up coilovers if they were an affordable alternative...but alas, we do not.
c) coilovers are expensive. ok ok so there were some for 1200$ on ebay in the above links, but realistically those are $2000 setups from any shop...NOT installed. My sportlines were 220 and my tokicos were 539 shipped. That comes out to 800$ installed because i did it myself, or about 1100 installed if done by a shop. (about 4hrs of labor). that is an easy 500$ savings, but likely even more than that compared to a good coilover setup, and i can still pass an m3 on the outside lane of a freeway onramp...with shltty 225 tires up front. IMO you are better off getting springs + shocks/struts + sways + lca's for the same price as a coilover kit, and will handle quite noticeably better in the end. of course, with the budget, coilovers are slightly better for road-racing applications on our cars, and offer that added adjustability, plus sways and other suspension parts are still available for even more handling improvement
i am happy with the route i took
IMHO i don't see any real benefit to a coilover system other than adjustable ride height.
a couple reasons:
a) we have macphereson-strut setups in front, so the spring is already coiling the shock. with an adjustable rate lowering spring and good adjustable shocks (eibach sportline/pro kit, and tokico d-specs for example), you get all the benefits of a coilover system minus the marginal tunability improvement of ride height/spring stiffness
b) we have solid rear axles, which move up and down as a whole unit for the most part. any bump on the left rear side will be felt to some degree on the right rear side. thus, having two springs controlling the movement of the rear axle vertically accomplishes the same thing as havingt a coilover system. the only benefit i see is the suspension response is pushed as far out on the axle as possible with a coilover, which might lend toward some form of noticeable improvement, but nothing drastic. NOW, IF WE HAD IRS this arument would be void and i would say that you would be stupid to pass up coilovers if they were an affordable alternative...but alas, we do not.
c) coilovers are expensive. ok ok so there were some for 1200$ on ebay in the above links, but realistically those are $2000 setups from any shop...NOT installed. My sportlines were 220 and my tokicos were 539 shipped. That comes out to 800$ installed because i did it myself, or about 1100 installed if done by a shop. (about 4hrs of labor). that is an easy 500$ savings, but likely even more than that compared to a good coilover setup, and i can still pass an m3 on the outside lane of a freeway onramp...with shltty 225 tires up front. IMO you are better off getting springs + shocks/struts + sways + lca's for the same price as a coilover kit, and will handle quite noticeably better in the end. of course, with the budget, coilovers are slightly better for road-racing applications on our cars, and offer that added adjustability, plus sways and other suspension parts are still available for even more handling improvement
i am happy with the route i took
B) The coilovers for the rear axle are most likely a contradiction. Most aftermarket coilover sets for seperate spring and shock systems use a sleeved spring in place of the standard spring so it's not really a coilover. In the end its about tuning which a live axle can benfit from just as much as a IRS.
C) All those bits are still necessary since the springs shouldn't be used to handle all the cornering force, but it isn't a crime to do so. A stronger spring and shock can negate the need for any sway bar, but it would make traction over bumps and dips problematic.
It all comes down to tuning the entire system to work optimally. Lowering springs and shocks make a vast improvement over the stock suspension, but they are still working around compromises. Some folks don't want to compromise even just to pick up a bottle of Advil from the drug store.
I don't know about the 05-06 models but on 04 and below the mcpherson struts DID NOT have the spring attached to them. THey were towards wider part of the A-arm.
As for shocks/strus/springs replacing a sway bar...uh not true. A sway bar improves the rigidity of the body as well. It helps to further reduce flexing while cornering. Coils/spring/struts will never do that no mater how stiff they are.
There is always a benefit to pushing the suspension out as far as possible to the four corners and keeping the spring AND shock/strut/coil together. Otherwise all the manufacturers of the world are just idiots. (BMW/Porsche/Ferrari/Ford GT/ etc)
07-27-2006, 05:45 PM
#27
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 3,758
RE: Coil-Over or Springs???
ORIGINAL: superiormirage
I have to post the retardo question here: what is the difference between coilovers and shocks/springs?
I have to post the retardo question here: what is the difference between coilovers and shocks/springs?
"coil over" is exactly what it sounds like...a spring that coils around a shock. technically speaking, this is also what a "strut" is, only on a strut the spring is usually internalized, or is simply sitting around the shock instead of being located somewhere away from it. they act in very different ways though. a strut's spring is more designed to rebound the shock when it gets compressed, whereas a coilover has a shock in the center, a "seat" for the spring to rest on that has adjustable position on the shock (to lower/raise suspension, and stiffen/loosen suspension travel), and has theshock and spring finely tuned to work together in unison to make it as hard as possible to compress the suspension, while making it extremely easy to rebound. when going around a turn really fast, this keeps the suspension on the outside as close to normal ride height as possible (instead of compressing a bunch and making the car feel like "rolling"), and pushes the inside wheel down (instead of lifting up) to increase traction to the road while keeping the car's geometry as level as possible.
this is how i understand it at least.
TAKEN FROM HOWSTUFFWORKS.COM:
"Struts and Anti-sway Bars
Another common dampening structure is the strut -- basically a shock absorber mounted inside a coil spring. Struts perform two jobs: They provide a dampening function like shock absorbers, and they provide structural support for the vehicle suspension. That means struts deliver a bit more than shock absorbers, which don't support vehicle weight -- they only control the speed at which weight is transferred in a car, not the weight itself."
we have macphereson struts up front, which are a much better design than spring and shock in seperate locations, like in back. this allows the spring and shock to work together, but a coilover design will be more finely tuned.
basically, coilover > strut >>> shock/spring located apart from each otehr
07-28-2006, 07:15 AM
#29
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 62
RE: Coil-Over or Springs???
I've already given the real differences between the two.
I don't know about the 05-06 models but on 04 and below the mcpherson struts DID NOT have the spring attached to them. THey were towards wider part of the A-arm.
I don't know about the 05-06 models but on 04 and below the mcpherson struts DID NOT have the spring attached to them. THey were towards wider part of the A-arm.
07-29-2006, 12:28 AM
#30
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: California
Posts: 1,471
RE: Coil-Over or Springs???
Hi Readers,
If you are really thinking of buying coilovers I'm sorry to burst your bubble of ignorance and marketing hype but coilovers as they exist for the S197 chassis are a waste of money. I've done development of racing and performance suspension for several years with a well known American tuner of German performance cars. From a technical standpoint a well developed coilover suspension can offer a slight weight and tuning advantage on the race track over a stock style MacPherson or Chapman strut. But this will only be true if you have aluminum alloy bodied (NOT the steel or even SS), true double adjustable dampers on all for corners with gas reservors (not the B.S. non-adjustable double tube oil dampers or single adjustables if you are lucky), that are for the most part what they are selling you for the street. Yes, all of the so called coilovers are for the street and are not race quality no matter what they are telling you. Additionally to actually take advantage of the potential handling and grip advantage of a coilover setup you'll need a a lot of equipment to find the optimum settings on the track and a race driver and race engineer who understand what the suspension is doing and how to tune it for the track. You will also need a lot of stuff, starting with a full set of portable alignment insturments, digital corner scales, a large selection of single rate springs, oil and gas filling and pressure insturments for the dampers and a full set of curves from your time on the shock dyno. All this stuff will add about $2,500 or so to your budget assumming you have the usual shop tools.
The potential of coilovers in theory is there, but in the real world on the street a good set of well designed progressive rate sport springs made with quality wire (my tip to you is to look for a T.U.V. approved spring set), and a set of Tokico D-Specs will perform as well or better than almost any of the underdeveloped so called performance coilovers on the market. If you really want a good set of coilovers it will take lots of money and lots of your time to develop them. Figure somewhere in the area of about $6,000-$8,000 just for the dampers and you'll still need a good selection of single rate springs to go with them along with the pressure adjusting equipment not to mention the usual tools. For a serious road racing car this is SOP, for the street a total waste of good money. There is also the little matter of what the sanctioning body of your racing class will allow you to change on the car. If you don't know what I'm talking about you have no business messing with coilovers. Get real and get what works for your street car.
Cheers