Keep modding or change cars . . .
08-06-2008, 07:33 AM
#11
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
RE: Keep modding or change cars . . .
ORIGINAL: UrS4
I used the word disconnected to mean: with quick change of direction, the front has pretty good steering response and feels sharp, while the rear feels like t is playing catch up, like there is an ever so slight yet noticeable lag in the rear as far as following the front. Picture it like two people in those horse costumes, sure they can turn but they don't move as a unit rather two separate parts.
I used the word disconnected to mean: with quick change of direction, the front has pretty good steering response and feels sharp, while the rear feels like t is playing catch up, like there is an ever so slight yet noticeable lag in the rear as far as following the front. Picture it like two people in those horse costumes, sure they can turn but they don't move as a unit rather two separate parts.
Can you relate this time lag to the amount of time that it takes for the car to roll to whatever angle it wants to be at for whatever corner and cornering speed? Or is it some random thing.
Now when going quick around a corner or through a sharp turn, the rear feels a little loose and like it wants to step out. This is more noticeable when turning the car to the left. It feels more stable and has a more solid feel when turning right.
This sort of asymmetric behavior is probably because you have a PHB rather than a Watts link.
I know the rear wheels are not centered in the wheel well, I think the right rear wheel is inside the wheel well a 1/4 inch more. Is what I am feeling a function of the third link or will an adj panhard bar remedy this? Also, when going over bumps at speed, the rear feels "lighter" now, traction is lost a little easier when accelerating over a bump and the rear feels like it wants to jump in the air. Is this the rear shocks failing, it is like the rear springs are no controlled as much and they are just rebounding the rear into the air.
Rebound damping may be starting to "go away", as shocks don´t just suddenly stop working unless they become physically damaged. I´m starting to notice a little more movement in rebound on my car, and that´swith only ~6000 miles on the car and no suspension changes at all.
I realize that 255/50/17 is not a great size from a handling standpoint, but the tire is wider than stock and it is a summer tire, not an All season like the Pirellis
If you still have them on the OE 8" wide wheels, they are less well-supported laterally than the 235/55´s were. My guess is that while you may well have higher ultimate grip, it starts dropping away from being "linear" somewhat sooner. For harder cornering, a 255/50 wants wheels about an inch wider than 235/55´s.
RodeoFlyer - As far as torque arms vs 3rd links go, they both perform the same function but do so differently, and these two methods of controlling "pinion angle" end up with slightly different "side effects". So technically they really do differ. I think one has to be careful in what they consider to be a true torque arm though, since a "torque arm" that uses a short rod-ended link at its chassis end is actually turning its short link into a real"3rd link". In that case, the kinematic construction is more closely related to that of a 3-link rather than to a true torque arm that plunges within a chassis-side bushing a la 3rd/4th gen F-body. Also, depending on what all of the link bushing stiffnesses are, a 3-link such as is in the S197 can give slight amounts of axle steer under certain conditions separate from what the LCAs & PHB/WL dictate during suspension bump/rebound/roll where a torque arm won´t.
Norm
08-06-2008, 06:36 PM
#12
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
RE: Keep modding or change cars . . .
It's up to you to buy another car or not.
You aren't getting at all a real look at the capabilities of the S197. You also don't need to re-invent the wheel to make it work a lot, LOT better in any number of ways.....
You have a big list. While you might end up with a number of or maybe all those parts down the road, you shouldn't assume you need them all. You don't. First you should start with the dampers. The stock stuff could be worse when new, but isn't great and as miles pile on the rears in particular become unhappy and make the rear end jump around that much more. Shocks on a solid axle car are super important. You might opt to do springs while you are in there.... but the stock springs aren't terrible. And so it goes, you can do as much as you want. But I tend to do things a little more systematically. What does the car do you want to change? What parts do we want to help it without messing something we like up.
I'd caution you to not thing too big.
I'd start with quality dampers. Springs if you want. A watts link is a nice piece and does settle the rear down more than a PHB does, but PHB's can work pretty well. In the end though the roll center of a PHB moves up and down as the car moves. It's never the same, and acts differently as you go in different directions. A Watts is nicer than a PHB. A PHB is cheap and crudely effective. One of your complaints is with the the back, and a Watts is better.
That said, I have to recommend you start with good dampers. I prefer Koni, but D-specs can do the job too. While you are doing them (regardless of springs or not) you might opt for either camber plates of "HD mounts" that give you some adjustment. Not 100% required, but it's one of those "while I'm there" things.
There are soooooo many parts available. And every part has a job. The thing is, not every job needs done, and at times folks mess things up by doing too much without regard to how the car is actually acting.
Work on what you don't like first, only after we make that better can you truly see where we go next.
This is how I work, it's how I approach customer's cars as well as my own. I'll never be rich becaue I don't sell $3000 "kits", becaue I don't think they are needed for most situations.
Happy to help, it's why I put a normal phone number in my sig for tech help. You don't need to do exactly what I think, I think there are many ways to get something done. I just try and offer options on parts, and an opinion on how I think the parts will work for you.
You aren't getting at all a real look at the capabilities of the S197. You also don't need to re-invent the wheel to make it work a lot, LOT better in any number of ways.....
You have a big list. While you might end up with a number of or maybe all those parts down the road, you shouldn't assume you need them all. You don't. First you should start with the dampers. The stock stuff could be worse when new, but isn't great and as miles pile on the rears in particular become unhappy and make the rear end jump around that much more. Shocks on a solid axle car are super important. You might opt to do springs while you are in there.... but the stock springs aren't terrible. And so it goes, you can do as much as you want. But I tend to do things a little more systematically. What does the car do you want to change? What parts do we want to help it without messing something we like up.
I'd caution you to not thing too big.
I'd start with quality dampers. Springs if you want. A watts link is a nice piece and does settle the rear down more than a PHB does, but PHB's can work pretty well. In the end though the roll center of a PHB moves up and down as the car moves. It's never the same, and acts differently as you go in different directions. A Watts is nicer than a PHB. A PHB is cheap and crudely effective. One of your complaints is with the the back, and a Watts is better.
That said, I have to recommend you start with good dampers. I prefer Koni, but D-specs can do the job too. While you are doing them (regardless of springs or not) you might opt for either camber plates of "HD mounts" that give you some adjustment. Not 100% required, but it's one of those "while I'm there" things.
There are soooooo many parts available. And every part has a job. The thing is, not every job needs done, and at times folks mess things up by doing too much without regard to how the car is actually acting.
Work on what you don't like first, only after we make that better can you truly see where we go next.
This is how I work, it's how I approach customer's cars as well as my own. I'll never be rich becaue I don't sell $3000 "kits", becaue I don't think they are needed for most situations.
Happy to help, it's why I put a normal phone number in my sig for tech help. You don't need to do exactly what I think, I think there are many ways to get something done. I just try and offer options on parts, and an opinion on how I think the parts will work for you.
08-06-2008, 07:26 PM
#13
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 38
RE: Keep modding or change cars . . .
honestly id say save what you are gonna spend on it and upgrade. if you have never ridden in a c6 or c5 id say do so before deciding what to do. You will never (on any car) get anywhere close to the amount of money back out of the car once you start modding pretty heavily. i am actually in the same dilema, i wanted to buy a new motor, turbo, trans...etc but after the 15K+ im gonna put in it... well heck i can have a C6 Z06 that with some mods will rape my car i wanna have especially on the track and ill be able to get more moeny out of it later.
08-06-2008, 07:49 PM
#14
4th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 1,313
RE: Keep modding or change cars . . .
Norm,
To answer your questions, the lag means to me that the rear end does not track with the front.I can only try and explain it in lame metaphors instead of real math and physics because I would just come off as more of an idiot.But basically, it feels to me like the front and rear of the car are on two different orbits, like there are two masses connected by one stick/string.When making quick steering adjustments or making quick turns, rather than feeling like the car is moving as a unit, it feels as if the front suspension loads and starts making the turn, but the rear lags and has more movement (or its own vector that is slightly different from the front) before loading and following the front.It kind of feels like a slight lateral wiggle/slide rather than a rotation or roll of the rear end during this transition period, but I suppose it could bea function of the sway bars and my butt and vestibular system are not registering it correctly. I have noticed that when turning to the right, when the rear end sets, the car feels more stable to me, but when taking a left turn, the rear feels like it steps/wiggles/slides out more and feels more twitchy and less stable.
Now my question to you all is this:
What is the root of this?
My guess is it has to do with the following:
Stock rubber bushings
Tall side wall tires with less lateral support
Stock shocks
Rear sway bar
PHB
But do I have to change all this or is there one maybe two of these that will have the most impact?
Norm,
As far as the rear springs, I remember when the car was newer, and with the needle on E and the spare out, harsh hwy bumps/expansion joints would have the rear dance a little. Now with the spare still in and the car anything less than a full tank the rear likes to break traction over bumps and when the tank is near empty, harsh bumps really gets my attention.
Is this purely a shock issue? Or do my tires come into play as well. I was running the stock Pirellis on the stock wheels before. I have 28K miles on the car now.
Any help from you guys is extremely helpful at this point as I need to know what I should be saving for so I can make positive strides forward and not go backwards.
To answer your questions, the lag means to me that the rear end does not track with the front.I can only try and explain it in lame metaphors instead of real math and physics because I would just come off as more of an idiot.But basically, it feels to me like the front and rear of the car are on two different orbits, like there are two masses connected by one stick/string.When making quick steering adjustments or making quick turns, rather than feeling like the car is moving as a unit, it feels as if the front suspension loads and starts making the turn, but the rear lags and has more movement (or its own vector that is slightly different from the front) before loading and following the front.It kind of feels like a slight lateral wiggle/slide rather than a rotation or roll of the rear end during this transition period, but I suppose it could bea function of the sway bars and my butt and vestibular system are not registering it correctly. I have noticed that when turning to the right, when the rear end sets, the car feels more stable to me, but when taking a left turn, the rear feels like it steps/wiggles/slides out more and feels more twitchy and less stable.
Now my question to you all is this:
What is the root of this?
My guess is it has to do with the following:
Stock rubber bushings
Tall side wall tires with less lateral support
Stock shocks
Rear sway bar
PHB
But do I have to change all this or is there one maybe two of these that will have the most impact?
Norm,
As far as the rear springs, I remember when the car was newer, and with the needle on E and the spare out, harsh hwy bumps/expansion joints would have the rear dance a little. Now with the spare still in and the car anything less than a full tank the rear likes to break traction over bumps and when the tank is near empty, harsh bumps really gets my attention.
Is this purely a shock issue? Or do my tires come into play as well. I was running the stock Pirellis on the stock wheels before. I have 28K miles on the car now.
Any help from you guys is extremely helpful at this point as I need to know what I should be saving for so I can make positive strides forward and not go backwards.
08-07-2008, 02:17 PM
#15
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
RE: Keep modding or change cars . . .
It's a shock issue. As far as I can tell nothing has changed but for tires and the fact the shocks now have 28k miles on them. And they aren't great stock, and get worse with age. I see it in my girlfriend's car all the time wtih half the miles you have on your stuff.
The tires can contribute, but I think you'd have noticed a such a change straight away when you put those tires on.
All your complaints can be helped with a good set of dampers. The "lag" which is actually the front and rear response rates not matching well (you have the same tires all around, right?). The jump rear that's gotten worse as the the shocks age and don't do their job like when they were new.
The tires can contribute, but I think you'd have noticed a such a change straight away when you put those tires on.
All your complaints can be helped with a good set of dampers. The "lag" which is actually the front and rear response rates not matching well (you have the same tires all around, right?). The jump rear that's gotten worse as the the shocks age and don't do their job like when they were new.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
inyadreems
Archive - Mustangs For Sale
2
08-21-2015 09:10 AM
92 5.0stang
5.0L (1979-1995) Mustang
4
08-13-2015 06:46 AM
Milan Dragway
Members Rides and Car Show Section
0
08-12-2015 03:43 PM
