Lets talk about Watts-link suspensions
12-08-2008, 08:27 AM
#11
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Its funny - the Watts link is one of those subjects, much like coil over dampers, that seems to stoke passionate responses, both pro and con, from all sorts of people, most of who have never driven on one and are only regurgitating what they have read elsewhere or trying to rationalize why they didn't purchanse one.
Two people whose opinion I respect much - F1Fan and Sam Strano (in spite of the post regarding Sam's comments above) have both driven Watts Links and think they are worth it. In fact, if you go back over time reading F1Fan's posts you can see how he evloved from a Watts link hater to a Watts link lover once he tried it and then installed it in his car.
Unless you actually have high performance driving experience in a car with one installed, I just don't see how you can answer this question. My 2 cents.
Two people whose opinion I respect much - F1Fan and Sam Strano (in spite of the post regarding Sam's comments above) have both driven Watts Links and think they are worth it. In fact, if you go back over time reading F1Fan's posts you can see how he evloved from a Watts link hater to a Watts link lover once he tried it and then installed it in his car.
Unless you actually have high performance driving experience in a car with one installed, I just don't see how you can answer this question. My 2 cents.
It seems Sam Strano has recently changed his viewpoint on watts links as of 2 months ago.
When I talked with him for about 7 hours regarding handling (not kidding) he had only driven watts links that are of the axle tube variety which add several dozen pounds of unsprung weight to the car so they were not worth it on the track because any handling improvements negated themselves by the weight and you wasted your money.
After looking up some of his new posts on Google it seems he has changed his mind, and recommends light weight/diff cover watts links for ALL applications saying that they improve handling in ALL situations (track and street) and are worth it, if only purely for the additional CONTROL, ride comfort, and increasing the ability of the car to remain settled and easy to drive on the track alone, not to mention the speed they provide on the street. The fact that these "handling quality" features come at a price of money instead of lap time numbers means good watts links are a good investment.
He also recommends doing dampers before a watts link, and so do I.
He's put watts links on several cars to test out how they preform and he recommends them based on driver feedback in addition to his assessments as the mustang racing champ.
Last edited by Legion5; 12-08-2008 at 08:33 AM.
12-08-2008, 09:24 AM
#12
so only Sam Strano and F1Fan have driven them on an s197?
another question: i hear that with the Saleen/JDM watts link, you need a ride height similar to saleens. as far as i remember, thats like a 1 inch all around or similar drop
now why would a watts link, which is supposed to allow for vertical travel, need a specific ride height?
forgive my ignorance on the subject, but it seems like just the kind of rumor that gets started to sell more springs
another question: i hear that with the Saleen/JDM watts link, you need a ride height similar to saleens. as far as i remember, thats like a 1 inch all around or similar drop
now why would a watts link, which is supposed to allow for vertical travel, need a specific ride height?
forgive my ignorance on the subject, but it seems like just the kind of rumor that gets started to sell more springs
12-08-2008, 09:55 AM
#13
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I've driven a watts link a Mid Ohio and on a back road. They're nice in both respects but I really felt the car become MUCH more confident over a winding road, like supercharged s197 at full throttle out of the apex of a "35mph recommended" zone confident...
12-08-2008, 10:10 AM
#14
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Oh, getting a watts link before getting performance enhancing springs and dampers to go with them isn't a efficient investment plan it's like getting a supercharger pulley before getting a actual supercharger.
Last edited by Legion5; 12-08-2008 at 10:13 AM.
12-08-2008, 02:56 PM
#16
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I would say that the requirement for lowering springs for a watts link to function is the equivalent of lies.
What may happen is that some watts links don't allow you to adjust the roll center of the car up or down and this adjustment can change a lot in terms of handling, either way it's an adjustment best left to the professionals, but what can happens is that certain watts links are designed to be used with certain wheel heights which therefore dictate certain more ideal roll centers. However this is FAR from a requirement any more than requiring your dampers on say the 3rd notch is something you need to do with dampers.
What may happen is that some watts links don't allow you to adjust the roll center of the car up or down and this adjustment can change a lot in terms of handling, either way it's an adjustment best left to the professionals, but what can happens is that certain watts links are designed to be used with certain wheel heights which therefore dictate certain more ideal roll centers. However this is FAR from a requirement any more than requiring your dampers on say the 3rd notch is something you need to do with dampers.
12-08-2008, 03:40 PM
#17
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Here's my post stating that a Watts link (if well thought out) is superior to a Panhard bar....
Basically Watts links eliminate a number of geometry issues that come inherently with a PHB design. Those include the fact your roll center height moves up and down as the body moves up and down. The body is pulled down and to the right when turning left, and pushed up and to the left when turning right, and the body axle/body relationship moves in an arc as the body moves.
You'll notice I only offer versions that allow you to adjust the RC height, the ones that mount on the differential cover do not allow this (at least not any I've seen), and some others that mount to a frame don't have this adjustment either.
Don't get me wrong, for what's involved a PHB car can and does work quite well. However, it's a crude method of location and one that simply has limitations, and I can't think of a reason other than cost that anyone would prefer a PHB over a Watts. That is unless they tried a poorly designed Watts that say had a set RC height that wasn't suitable for their use and allowed no adjustability...
I have one ready to go on my Camaro this winter (new for this car). And if/when I build my S197 for ESP it'll have one too (I can't run one in the class the car is setup for now).
Basically Watts links eliminate a number of geometry issues that come inherently with a PHB design. Those include the fact your roll center height moves up and down as the body moves up and down. The body is pulled down and to the right when turning left, and pushed up and to the left when turning right, and the body axle/body relationship moves in an arc as the body moves.
You'll notice I only offer versions that allow you to adjust the RC height, the ones that mount on the differential cover do not allow this (at least not any I've seen), and some others that mount to a frame don't have this adjustment either.
Don't get me wrong, for what's involved a PHB car can and does work quite well. However, it's a crude method of location and one that simply has limitations, and I can't think of a reason other than cost that anyone would prefer a PHB over a Watts. That is unless they tried a poorly designed Watts that say had a set RC height that wasn't suitable for their use and allowed no adjustability...
I have one ready to go on my Camaro this winter (new for this car). And if/when I build my S197 for ESP it'll have one too (I can't run one in the class the car is setup for now).
12-08-2008, 03:45 PM
#18
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After looking up some of his new posts on Google it seems he has changed his mind, and recommends light weight/diff cover watts links for ALL applications saying that they improve handling in ALL situations (track and street) and are worth it, if only purely for the additional CONTROL, ride comfort, and increasing the ability of the car to remain settled and easy to drive on the track alone, not to mention the speed they provide on the street. The fact that these "handling quality" features come at a price of money instead of lap time numbers means good watts links are a good investment.
Norm
12-08-2008, 03:54 PM
#19
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[QUOTE=Legion5;5725153]according to sam strano the most racing proven mustang handling person, watts links do nothing for the mustang's handeling on the track because of the way the panhard bad is designed it changes the roll center on a track very little. However on the street a watts link significantly improves handeling because when the roll center changes the tires shift around loosing grip in the process and messing up the handeling too.
The problem is that watts links add lots of unsprung weight, unless they are of the diff cover variety. Furthermore continuing his words not mine, watts links are hugely overpriced.
He'd only put them on if you have:
Front sway bar
damper
springs
lower control arms
and only if you're driving on the street, because on the track a car with a watts link preforms the same as a car with an aftermarket pan hard bar and you would have just wasted money.
The watts link also lets you run a stronger rear sway bar without sacrificing ride comfort, which which can increase handeling a very significant 10%![/QUO
Everything about this post says that you really don't know what you are talking about.
Grand Am Cup FR500C - panhard bar
Miller Cup FR500S - panhard bar
95% of NASA American Iron Series cars - panhard bar
95% of SCCA American Sedan - panhard bar
should I go on?
95% of guys in this forum - street cars that see occasional track time.
I fail to see what emboldens people to think they need a $1000+ piece that most race cars do just fine without. It's these people that misinform the rest of the uninformed and inexperienced members. I fail to see why it is a constant pissing match, mostly between a bunch of people that don't know what the **** they are talking about.
I HAVE driven 2 S197's with watts links, as well as a Fox. My summary -MEH. Sure, it's a little better, but not worth the cost of a set of tires or 4 sets of brake pads. I also can't afford the penalty due to classing issues. That's my situation. Many others' are similar.
If you want your car to go faster - spend money on YOU. It's ridiculous how many guy show up for HPDE's and get passed by Miatas. It's these same guys that are usually on **** tires - but have a $1300 watts link. Comical.
On paper a watts link is better. In practice - not so much. It's simple but the debate will go on forever.
The problem is that watts links add lots of unsprung weight, unless they are of the diff cover variety. Furthermore continuing his words not mine, watts links are hugely overpriced.
He'd only put them on if you have:
Front sway bar
damper
springs
lower control arms
and only if you're driving on the street, because on the track a car with a watts link preforms the same as a car with an aftermarket pan hard bar and you would have just wasted money.
The watts link also lets you run a stronger rear sway bar without sacrificing ride comfort, which which can increase handeling a very significant 10%![/QUO
Everything about this post says that you really don't know what you are talking about.
Grand Am Cup FR500C - panhard bar
Miller Cup FR500S - panhard bar
95% of NASA American Iron Series cars - panhard bar
95% of SCCA American Sedan - panhard bar
should I go on?
95% of guys in this forum - street cars that see occasional track time.
I fail to see what emboldens people to think they need a $1000+ piece that most race cars do just fine without. It's these people that misinform the rest of the uninformed and inexperienced members. I fail to see why it is a constant pissing match, mostly between a bunch of people that don't know what the **** they are talking about.
I HAVE driven 2 S197's with watts links, as well as a Fox. My summary -MEH. Sure, it's a little better, but not worth the cost of a set of tires or 4 sets of brake pads. I also can't afford the penalty due to classing issues. That's my situation. Many others' are similar.
If you want your car to go faster - spend money on YOU. It's ridiculous how many guy show up for HPDE's and get passed by Miatas. It's these same guys that are usually on **** tires - but have a $1300 watts link. Comical.
On paper a watts link is better. In practice - not so much. It's simple but the debate will go on forever.
12-08-2008, 04:00 PM
#20
ok, now im thoroughly confused..... how is a watts link thats not attached to the differential cover or any part of the axle supposed to restrain side to side movement? also, why does ride height affect what kind of WL i can put on the car, since vertical movement is not restricted?