Questions about brake upgrades
09-02-2009, 02:05 AM
#11
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: CALI
Posts: 667
the fluids, lines, pads, rotors, ducts are the best for stock brake setups Just like what everybody else said.
If you ever do decide to go with upgraded rears.....that looks to be a real PITA. I know theres ap racing with a 4 piston at the rear. The install on that really blows by the looks of the install manual.
Im sure brembo or baer makes something as well.
Obviously the best setup would be 6 piston front 4 piston rear.
I'm curious to see if anyone has this setup and does track it. Wonder what the difference in braking and time is.
If you ever do decide to go with upgraded rears.....that looks to be a real PITA. I know theres ap racing with a 4 piston at the rear. The install on that really blows by the looks of the install manual.
Im sure brembo or baer makes something as well.
Obviously the best setup would be 6 piston front 4 piston rear.
I'm curious to see if anyone has this setup and does track it. Wonder what the difference in braking and time is.
09-02-2009, 02:26 AM
#12
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Near Wash. DC Posts: 13,541
Posts: 2,497
So my big question about brakes is that I am looking at upgrading mine, but I don't want to exceed what is really necessary. I was thinking about just getting drilled/slotted rotors, would that be a significant improvement over the factory system, or do I really need to get a new set up with larger rotors and calipers.
Every sensible upgrade starts with a purpose, not just "umm give me something" because then you'll get all kinds of random answers about what's cool rather than what you need to solve your problem.
I've tried to compile some comprehensive information because you can't benefit from any one suggestion because you don't know what you want.
Drilled rotors today are are exclusively used out of all the racing applications in cars only in RALLY racing to get MUD away from rotors. Slotted rotors are designed to get RAIN and GLAZING from repeated stops from about 140mph off the rotor. When your car stops from high speed the temperatures in the brake pad spike, this causes the carbon material in the brake pads to undergo a chemical transformation which makes the atoms in it form long carbon chains that are smooth reducing the grip of the pad. Once your pads are glazed when you are using non-slotted rotors this causes a nearly PERMANENT reduction in braking force.
So unless your brakes have started performing significantly worse than when you got the car chances are you aren't dealing with the chemical initialization energy necessary to crystallize brake pads.
You seem to be looking for a "significant" improvement over the factory setup. Keep in mind that the Mustang has the BEST brakes of ANY street car that doesn't have 4+ piston monoblock calipers (most of these high performance factory systems are manufactured by Brembo which holds approximately 80% market share on high performance original equipment brakes, I can't remember the exact number now).
It really isn't that bad, I get gas for 3.07 a gal, so the price isn't as bad on my wallet as my foot is, gas mileage at 145 mph sucks! I already have 18 inch wheels, I just don't want to buy something twice. I want to get what is good the first time, but not necessarly the most expensive. So just get the kit for the front? Cause I think it would look really gay having cool looking brakes up front, and factory in the rear.
AP Racing $3000
Willwood $2000
Baer $1300
Griggs $1000
I tried the Baer front calipers (not knowing much about the brand initially) and they increased (as opposed to decreased) my braking distance FYI, so stay away from them.
Griggs and AP Racing are the performance oriented guys.
The Wilwood kit looks to be non-performance oriented based on the zealous decoration of their rotor.
However you can rest assured that just a front kit looks great:
Here's a car with Baer front brakes and also upgraded rear rotors for looks.
If your purpose is that your brakes are fading ie you brake and then the car doesn't brake as well the second time the good kits for that are the Stoptech ones.
If you feel like your car isn't responding well to braking force and you can't control it well or it's uneven, again the good kits for that are the Stoptech ones.
If you want to stop in a shorter distance the good kits for that are the AP Racing ones ($3000 per end) Griggs 4on4 ($1000 per end) or the Brembo ones ($1000 per end, only front)
Your lap times at a race track improve significantly with a kit like the Stoptech even if you don't think you have poor control over your brakes, you do and because of the way in which they are applied ie unevenly you aren't able to get as consistently close to the braking threshold throughout the braking cycle as with a kit that has more control. The kits that brake the best are the ones that grip the rotor the fastest and the hardest when the brake is initially applied though, the Brembo ones do this, but those for example have less control than the Stoptech ones so you will be faster with Stoptech from point A to point B. The Griggs ones have the most control and the lowest stopping distance and the lowest weight, they just look completely lame.
Also upgraded rotors, lines and pads are a WASTEFUL upgrade, you can get upgraded pads rotors lines with a whole new brake kit for about the SAME price as getting many upgrade parts. Upgraded brake parts are already included in most kits, and once the small upgrade add up they are almost the same as a big upgrade. You're paying slightly less for a lot less bang for your buck. Upgraded brake kits will look and perform better than upgraded existing parts "significantly" that is.
I'm running the $3600 Stoptech setup up front for brake fade which they are the best at and the $1000 Griggs setup in the rear, for the best all around brakes, I refinished the rear caliper to look like the front one from a matt black finish to a gloss one and painted the Griggs brake rotor to black in it's center and also slotted the rear rotor. I'm using custom brake pads, so that the front and rear have the same compound ie be the same brand and model. During braking you want the front and rear pads to have the same characteristics so you have to run the same front and rear pads or your control of the car will be uneven at different temps.
Last edited by Legion5; 09-02-2009 at 12:03 PM.
09-02-2009, 09:49 AM
#13
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 757
James,
The search function is your friend. Legion has reprised an old debate on bbk vs. stock upgrades, and you would be well advised to look at those old posts and make up your own mind as to what you think is best for you.
For my part, I’m on the opposite side of this issue from Legion, but it is important to understand the nature of the disagreement because we actually agree on a great deal of the basic claims made. This is an internet discussion board, so you get a bunch of opinions as part of the nature of the beast. You really need to do your own research, seek out opinions (i.e. use the search function as well as ask Qs), and judge for yourself.
So let’s start with the agreements. First, I agree that the stock brake system is actually pretty good. This is part of why upgrades can have such positive outcomes; you’re already dealing with a fairly decent foundation. Second, and this is the most important one, you MUST define your goals clearly. I’m surprised Legion was the first person to bring this up. Without understanding your goals, you’re thrashing about mindlessly and liable to throw money at a ghost. I actually didn’t assume you were asking for tracking your car, but simply for street performance (but that’s getting into our disagreements too early). Third, I think Legion and I picked up on the same thing in the way you phrased your question, which is that you don’t seem too well informed about the basics of braking systems. This is not a slam against you, just a commentary on how I read into your question. If I’m wrong, all apologies due are freely given. If I’m right, some basic research is in order.
What Legion was trying to say (I think) is that if you don’t have your goals clearly set, you can’t really clearly define what “significant” means to you…and so, the rest of us are going to have a hard time offering our opinions in a manner that hits the target. Now all of us are chasing your ghosts (which is part of the reason I didn’t reply to your post in the first place; I’m busy, but Legion woke me up). So we need to know what you mean by “significant” in light of your goals.
So this brings us to the disagreements. I kind of assumed you originally meant street driving on the autobahn or something like that. In that case, your goals may simply be a better pedal feel, or maybe assurance you won’t experience brake fade in a one-time emergency stop, or just whatever. The biggest upgrade you can make to braking performance (note, I didn’t say “to the brake system”) is better tires. If you’re still on the OEM tires, ditch them and get some decent tires. Your braking performance will thank you for it. Of course, once the tires are better you’re going to be transferring all that great stopping force to your brake system, and the OEM system isn’t going to like you for it. Something needs to be done, but of course, that depends on your goals.
So let’s assume your goals are to get ready to track your car. If Legion and I are correct in our assumption that you don’t know much about braking systems, and I’m correct in assuming you’re new to tracking days (again, just an assumption based on the nature of the question), then we need to think seriously about what “significant” improvements over stock mean to you. I strongly suspect that this term means different things to Legion and I (and is at the heart of our disagreements).
For myself, I tracked my car the first time when it was bone stock. 6,000 miles off the show room floor, and we hit the track. The brakes sucked. In the middle of my second session on track (ever!) I was experiencing brake fade and a bit of fluid boil. Needless to say, the rest of the day was hairy as hell. After upgrading the stock system (pads, fluid, and lines), I could track my car all day long for 3 days straight with no hint of brake fade or fluid boil. Now, I don’t know about you or Legion, but in my world that is a MAJOR and significant improvement over stock.
Additionally, since lap times were brought up, I have to say that any driver (regardless of skill level) who doesn’t trust his or her car is going to be far slower than the same driver who now trusts that the car will do what is asked of it. Can a bbk system improve your lap times? I sure hope so, as I am set to go on the market next year for one (I’m outgrowing my upgraded stock system). But the improvement in lap time is not going to be anywhere near the same as the improvement found going from distrust to trust (just think of what happens when you run in the rain vs in the dry). As we and our cars get better and better, the improvements in lap time tend to get smaller and smaller. Frankly, I think many folks aren’t even interested in such improvements in the first place, they just want to trust their car a few weekends a year, not whittle away at tenths of a second. For the racer or serious enthusiast, tenths of a second are near and dear to our heart and more likely to inform how we define “significant” in this context. We don’t know your situation, so you have to fill in the blanks here.
Lastly, a word on cost. Do the math. I’m assuming you’re not completely mathematically incompetent, and you know the greater between $4,600 and $500. I don’t know why Legion and others continue to say that upgrading your stock system costs “almost” as much as a bbk set up. I’ll break it down for you:
1. Pads (front and rear): $350 (ex: Hawk HT-10 or Carbotech XP10)
2. Rotors for track-only use (front and rear): $150 (take-off)
Total (non-BBK-shared upgrades): $500
If you’re doing a BBK kit and don’t do a fluid flush, I won’t even be kind about it: you’re a poser who is not really serious about tracking your car. So, the expense for this should be shared in doing a comparison. I’m not convinced that the braided lines are necessary or even really offer a performance improvement, but I’ll include them below just to get a fully tally of what a bunch of folks have done already.
3. Fluid Flush to Motul RBF600: $60
4. Braided Lines: $150-$250 (depending on manufacturer)
Total: $710 - $810
All of this assumes you do the work on your own. Of course, if you don’t do the work on your own, then guess which is going to cost more in labor; pads and rotors only or pads, rotors, and calipers? Yeah, upgrading the stock system “almost” costs the same…in what world? You can throw in brake cooling ducts, which even for a bbk system should be strongly considered (look at any of the Mustang Challenge cars, etc., all with bbk systems and ducts), and your total should stay under $1,000. Legion’s brake set up is on the higher side of bbk systems in terms of cost, but even for the lower sides you’re comparison for a fully tricked out upgraded stock system is $1K max (for front and rear). Show me a bbk system (rears included) that is “almost” the same price. Show me.
M’kay, quiz time! Is $1K less than $4,600? Is $1K “almost” as much as $4,600? And now for the really hard one, how much more is $4,600 than $1,000? Answer in a percentage for the bonus prize!
Do the math, judge for yourself.
Best,
-j
p.s. An entirely different thread should probably started to discuss the pros and cons of different brake manufacturers, but for the record, Wilwood has been supplying race teams in all areas of motorsports with brake systems for 20+ years before Stoptech even opened its doors. They know brakes, they know racing. Saying they are just for looks is silly. They make many different levels and types of systems. So call them and get the facts, and as always, judge for yourself.
The search function is your friend. Legion has reprised an old debate on bbk vs. stock upgrades, and you would be well advised to look at those old posts and make up your own mind as to what you think is best for you.
For my part, I’m on the opposite side of this issue from Legion, but it is important to understand the nature of the disagreement because we actually agree on a great deal of the basic claims made. This is an internet discussion board, so you get a bunch of opinions as part of the nature of the beast. You really need to do your own research, seek out opinions (i.e. use the search function as well as ask Qs), and judge for yourself.
So let’s start with the agreements. First, I agree that the stock brake system is actually pretty good. This is part of why upgrades can have such positive outcomes; you’re already dealing with a fairly decent foundation. Second, and this is the most important one, you MUST define your goals clearly. I’m surprised Legion was the first person to bring this up. Without understanding your goals, you’re thrashing about mindlessly and liable to throw money at a ghost. I actually didn’t assume you were asking for tracking your car, but simply for street performance (but that’s getting into our disagreements too early). Third, I think Legion and I picked up on the same thing in the way you phrased your question, which is that you don’t seem too well informed about the basics of braking systems. This is not a slam against you, just a commentary on how I read into your question. If I’m wrong, all apologies due are freely given. If I’m right, some basic research is in order.
What Legion was trying to say (I think) is that if you don’t have your goals clearly set, you can’t really clearly define what “significant” means to you…and so, the rest of us are going to have a hard time offering our opinions in a manner that hits the target. Now all of us are chasing your ghosts (which is part of the reason I didn’t reply to your post in the first place; I’m busy, but Legion woke me up). So we need to know what you mean by “significant” in light of your goals.
So this brings us to the disagreements. I kind of assumed you originally meant street driving on the autobahn or something like that. In that case, your goals may simply be a better pedal feel, or maybe assurance you won’t experience brake fade in a one-time emergency stop, or just whatever. The biggest upgrade you can make to braking performance (note, I didn’t say “to the brake system”) is better tires. If you’re still on the OEM tires, ditch them and get some decent tires. Your braking performance will thank you for it. Of course, once the tires are better you’re going to be transferring all that great stopping force to your brake system, and the OEM system isn’t going to like you for it. Something needs to be done, but of course, that depends on your goals.
So let’s assume your goals are to get ready to track your car. If Legion and I are correct in our assumption that you don’t know much about braking systems, and I’m correct in assuming you’re new to tracking days (again, just an assumption based on the nature of the question), then we need to think seriously about what “significant” improvements over stock mean to you. I strongly suspect that this term means different things to Legion and I (and is at the heart of our disagreements).
For myself, I tracked my car the first time when it was bone stock. 6,000 miles off the show room floor, and we hit the track. The brakes sucked. In the middle of my second session on track (ever!) I was experiencing brake fade and a bit of fluid boil. Needless to say, the rest of the day was hairy as hell. After upgrading the stock system (pads, fluid, and lines), I could track my car all day long for 3 days straight with no hint of brake fade or fluid boil. Now, I don’t know about you or Legion, but in my world that is a MAJOR and significant improvement over stock.
Additionally, since lap times were brought up, I have to say that any driver (regardless of skill level) who doesn’t trust his or her car is going to be far slower than the same driver who now trusts that the car will do what is asked of it. Can a bbk system improve your lap times? I sure hope so, as I am set to go on the market next year for one (I’m outgrowing my upgraded stock system). But the improvement in lap time is not going to be anywhere near the same as the improvement found going from distrust to trust (just think of what happens when you run in the rain vs in the dry). As we and our cars get better and better, the improvements in lap time tend to get smaller and smaller. Frankly, I think many folks aren’t even interested in such improvements in the first place, they just want to trust their car a few weekends a year, not whittle away at tenths of a second. For the racer or serious enthusiast, tenths of a second are near and dear to our heart and more likely to inform how we define “significant” in this context. We don’t know your situation, so you have to fill in the blanks here.
Lastly, a word on cost. Do the math. I’m assuming you’re not completely mathematically incompetent, and you know the greater between $4,600 and $500. I don’t know why Legion and others continue to say that upgrading your stock system costs “almost” as much as a bbk set up. I’ll break it down for you:
1. Pads (front and rear): $350 (ex: Hawk HT-10 or Carbotech XP10)
2. Rotors for track-only use (front and rear): $150 (take-off)
Total (non-BBK-shared upgrades): $500
If you’re doing a BBK kit and don’t do a fluid flush, I won’t even be kind about it: you’re a poser who is not really serious about tracking your car. So, the expense for this should be shared in doing a comparison. I’m not convinced that the braided lines are necessary or even really offer a performance improvement, but I’ll include them below just to get a fully tally of what a bunch of folks have done already.
3. Fluid Flush to Motul RBF600: $60
4. Braided Lines: $150-$250 (depending on manufacturer)
Total: $710 - $810
All of this assumes you do the work on your own. Of course, if you don’t do the work on your own, then guess which is going to cost more in labor; pads and rotors only or pads, rotors, and calipers? Yeah, upgrading the stock system “almost” costs the same…in what world? You can throw in brake cooling ducts, which even for a bbk system should be strongly considered (look at any of the Mustang Challenge cars, etc., all with bbk systems and ducts), and your total should stay under $1,000. Legion’s brake set up is on the higher side of bbk systems in terms of cost, but even for the lower sides you’re comparison for a fully tricked out upgraded stock system is $1K max (for front and rear). Show me a bbk system (rears included) that is “almost” the same price. Show me.
M’kay, quiz time! Is $1K less than $4,600? Is $1K “almost” as much as $4,600? And now for the really hard one, how much more is $4,600 than $1,000? Answer in a percentage for the bonus prize!
Do the math, judge for yourself.
Best,
-j
p.s. An entirely different thread should probably started to discuss the pros and cons of different brake manufacturers, but for the record, Wilwood has been supplying race teams in all areas of motorsports with brake systems for 20+ years before Stoptech even opened its doors. They know brakes, they know racing. Saying they are just for looks is silly. They make many different levels and types of systems. So call them and get the facts, and as always, judge for yourself.
09-02-2009, 12:33 PM
#16
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 757
09-02-2009, 02:36 PM
#18
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Near Wash. DC Posts: 13,541
Posts: 2,497
That's also with 100% racing pads. Brake pads have an optimum temperature they work with and by adding materials to the pads you can move the temperature range where maximum braking is applied up the temperature scale. Street brake pads are designed to provide maximum braking from the moment you start up the car.
With a racing setup instead of experiencing brake fade after multiple high speed stops, you experience it on your FIRST few high speed stops which is undesirable on the street. In racing it's ok to shift your existing braking performance into a narrow range only drivable in certain circumstances because you know it's going to always be the same situation every lap during a race. On the street it's necessary to increase braking performance not shift it around.
In open wheel racing there's a saying that we have that some one is a race champion in spite of something about their car not because of it.
Robin Burnett is fast in the American Iron series in spite of using the stock brakes not because he uses them. You can get kits that are both lighter and have more control than stock but the common brake kits are heavier which helps with brake fade but a strict race car doesn't have issues with fade. so that's how that works out.
For example the Griggs 4on4 brake setup uses about the same diameter rotors as stock, 4 piston monoblock calipers all around and is much more consistent.
There's upgrade kit though with the front brakes off of the GT500 for about the same price you can get the Stoptech brake upgrade kit - $1000.
Is there even a choice there?
With a racing setup instead of experiencing brake fade after multiple high speed stops, you experience it on your FIRST few high speed stops which is undesirable on the street. In racing it's ok to shift your existing braking performance into a narrow range only drivable in certain circumstances because you know it's going to always be the same situation every lap during a race. On the street it's necessary to increase braking performance not shift it around.
In open wheel racing there's a saying that we have that some one is a race champion in spite of something about their car not because of it.
Robin Burnett is fast in the American Iron series in spite of using the stock brakes not because he uses them. You can get kits that are both lighter and have more control than stock but the common brake kits are heavier which helps with brake fade but a strict race car doesn't have issues with fade. so that's how that works out.
For example the Griggs 4on4 brake setup uses about the same diameter rotors as stock, 4 piston monoblock calipers all around and is much more consistent.
There's upgrade kit though with the front brakes off of the GT500 for about the same price you can get the Stoptech brake upgrade kit - $1000.
Is there even a choice there?
Last edited by Legion5; 09-02-2009 at 02:46 PM.
09-02-2009, 04:23 PM
#19
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Harrisburg PA
Posts: 1,778
Regarding street vs track/race pads. I'll just point out there are some pads out there that work very well for both. I'll give the stats on Carbotech since thats the one I use at the moment. Here are some temperature ranges:
XP8 200-1350 degrees
XP10 200-1650
XP12 250 - 2000
I've been running XP10 front and XP8 rear all summer on the street and track and their street performance is fantastic. Absolutely no lack of stopping power when cold. And...they are real race pads. Many of the competitors in SCCA T1 and NASA ST1 run them, as do SM and quite a few other classes. So...you can have it both ways. And as a bonus, they are pretty easy on rotors.
But - they dust like a MFer and can be noisy, so they aren't perfect.
XP8 200-1350 degrees
XP10 200-1650
XP12 250 - 2000
I've been running XP10 front and XP8 rear all summer on the street and track and their street performance is fantastic. Absolutely no lack of stopping power when cold. And...they are real race pads. Many of the competitors in SCCA T1 and NASA ST1 run them, as do SM and quite a few other classes. So...you can have it both ways. And as a bonus, they are pretty easy on rotors.
But - they dust like a MFer and can be noisy, so they aren't perfect.
09-02-2009, 04:55 PM
#20
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 114
I just thought I'd throw in an observation that may be lost on those who point to racers who use stock brake setups. In many cases they are limited by class requirement. Also, calipers and rotors, in addition to pads, are seen as consumables whereas an occasional weekend warrior may not be willing to pay the recurring cost of replacement parts.
Having tracked 2 Lightnings and going through pads, rotors and calipers quite often, I found the Brembo's on my STi so convenient. Just swap pads when swapping tires. After tracking the Mustang for half a dozen times on 305 Hoosiers, the calipers and rotors were shot - as well as a set of Hawk HT10's. So I decided to pony up get a set of Stoptech's. However, when adding in the cost of new street wheels and tires, it is turning out to be quite expensive.
Having tracked 2 Lightnings and going through pads, rotors and calipers quite often, I found the Brembo's on my STi so convenient. Just swap pads when swapping tires. After tracking the Mustang for half a dozen times on 305 Hoosiers, the calipers and rotors were shot - as well as a set of Hawk HT10's. So I decided to pony up get a set of Stoptech's. However, when adding in the cost of new street wheels and tires, it is turning out to be quite expensive.