Dialing out a little more oversteer...
09-21-2009, 05:19 PM
#1
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Dialing out a little more oversteer...
I installed Eibach sway bars and the car was handling much more neutrally, which I liked, but the rear end would still move around. I then installed a sophn fixed length panhard bar and steeda panhard bar brace.
The new parts made a pretty large difference in the way the car handled. Good thing the front sway bars are adjustable, I had to move the sway bar to the full "understeer" position, just to get the car closer to neutral. However, I still have a little too much oversteer for my taste.
Steeda recommends changing the alignment and going with there adjustable strut mounts, but I'm sure. I was thinking this part may help a little, although, I'm not sure.
http://www.steeda.com/products/front...ount_brace.php
Lowering springs might work, but that solution is out, I'd rather have a little oversteer than worry about bottoming out on steep driveways. One pro, weight tranfers to the back more easily when I take off and I seem to have more traction.
The new parts made a pretty large difference in the way the car handled. Good thing the front sway bars are adjustable, I had to move the sway bar to the full "understeer" position, just to get the car closer to neutral. However, I still have a little too much oversteer for my taste.
Steeda recommends changing the alignment and going with there adjustable strut mounts, but I'm sure. I was thinking this part may help a little, although, I'm not sure.
http://www.steeda.com/products/front...ount_brace.php
Lowering springs might work, but that solution is out, I'd rather have a little oversteer than worry about bottoming out on steep driveways. One pro, weight tranfers to the back more easily when I take off and I seem to have more traction.
Last edited by mustangtestuser; 09-21-2009 at 05:22 PM.
09-21-2009, 05:34 PM
#2
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I'm not sure you have a proper understanding of various terms, or how things work. You're jot going to have an oversteer situation with your front bar set to full stiff. The only possible way for you to have oversteer is throttle induced, in which case the car isn't the problem.
The Steeda swaybar braces are a crock.
I'm not sure of your problem, but I doubt it's alignment related. I would do some reading, and put together your thoughts a little better if you want help. Most people reading your post are scratching their heads right now.
The Steeda swaybar braces are a crock.
I'm not sure of your problem, but I doubt it's alignment related. I would do some reading, and put together your thoughts a little better if you want help. Most people reading your post are scratching their heads right now.
09-21-2009, 06:42 PM
#3
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Hmmm...I'm probably just not framing the problem correctly or should have been more explicit.
Here's what happened:
1) I added an aftermarket front and rear sway bar adjusted front sway bar to middle position. Liked the handling.
2) I added a fixed length panhard bar and panhard bar brace after I had installed the front and rear sway bars. Handling was much worse.
3) I adjusted the front sway bar to the "Full Forward/Firmest Setting". Handling improved, somewhat.
Regarding the adjustment I made to the front sway bar. Here are what my Eibach instructions say about that position (underline and bold words are their emphasis, not mine)...
"Full Forward/Firmest Setting
Reduces over-steer.
Use on smooth roads and tracks.
Do not use on wet or slick roads."
Anyway, moving the front sway bar to the "full forward" position, made the car handle much more to my liking, but not quite as well as before.
By "before" I mean, essentially a stock suspension with only Eibach front and rear sway bars with the front sway bar set to the "Mid Setting/Street Performance Setting". I originally mounted the front bar using the center hole.
- Adding the sway bars and adjusting to "Mid-setting/ Tuning out under or over-steering" was what I liked the best. (using the terminology from my instructions)
- Adding the new panhard bar and braced changed the way the car handled, negatively.
- Moving the bar to the "full forward position" helped the situation a bit, but not as much as I would like.
- The instructions refer to "full forward position" as "reduces over-steer". So, I figured adding those parts increased over-steer and I'd I was wondering if there was a way to reduce it further.
So, I guess the questions are:
What did I do by adding the stiffer panhard bar and brace?
Is there anything I can do, short of going back to the stock panhard bar and brace to help this condition?
Here's what happened:
1) I added an aftermarket front and rear sway bar adjusted front sway bar to middle position. Liked the handling.
2) I added a fixed length panhard bar and panhard bar brace after I had installed the front and rear sway bars. Handling was much worse.
3) I adjusted the front sway bar to the "Full Forward/Firmest Setting". Handling improved, somewhat.
Regarding the adjustment I made to the front sway bar. Here are what my Eibach instructions say about that position (underline and bold words are their emphasis, not mine)...
"Full Forward/Firmest Setting
Reduces over-steer.
Use on smooth roads and tracks.
Do not use on wet or slick roads."
Anyway, moving the front sway bar to the "full forward" position, made the car handle much more to my liking, but not quite as well as before.
By "before" I mean, essentially a stock suspension with only Eibach front and rear sway bars with the front sway bar set to the "Mid Setting/Street Performance Setting". I originally mounted the front bar using the center hole.
- Adding the sway bars and adjusting to "Mid-setting/ Tuning out under or over-steering" was what I liked the best. (using the terminology from my instructions)
- Adding the new panhard bar and braced changed the way the car handled, negatively.
- Moving the bar to the "full forward position" helped the situation a bit, but not as much as I would like.
- The instructions refer to "full forward position" as "reduces over-steer". So, I figured adding those parts increased over-steer and I'd I was wondering if there was a way to reduce it further.
So, I guess the questions are:
What did I do by adding the stiffer panhard bar and brace?
Is there anything I can do, short of going back to the stock panhard bar and brace to help this condition?
Last edited by mustangtestuser; 09-21-2009 at 07:35 PM.
09-21-2009, 07:30 PM
#4
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I'm not sure you have a proper understanding of various terms, or how things work. You're jot going to have an oversteer situation with your front bar set to full stiff. The only possible way for you to have oversteer is throttle induced, in which case the car isn't the problem.
The Steeda swaybar braces are a crock.
I'm not sure of your problem, but I doubt it's alignment related. I would do some reading, and put together your thoughts a little better if you want help. Most people reading your post are scratching their heads right now.
The Steeda swaybar braces are a crock.
I'm not sure of your problem, but I doubt it's alignment related. I would do some reading, and put together your thoughts a little better if you want help. Most people reading your post are scratching their heads right now.
actually I'm scratching my nut's !
09-21-2009, 07:35 PM
#5
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: CA
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Regarding your bars - Eibach's wording is confusing you a little. What it should say is "induces understeer". Potato/Patahto really, but that front setting on the bar is WAY too stiff.
I don't understand how merely replacing the panhard rod with one of the same length changed how the car handles. If the length is the same, and you haven't raised or lowered it, there should be no change. The car should take a slightly crisper set, but that's about it.
If I had to guess, I would say you have the front set way too stiff, and are inducing throttle oversteer to overcome it. Try setting the front bar in the rear-most setting, and adjust your driving. I'm convinced it's you and not the car.
I don't understand how merely replacing the panhard rod with one of the same length changed how the car handles. If the length is the same, and you haven't raised or lowered it, there should be no change. The car should take a slightly crisper set, but that's about it.
If I had to guess, I would say you have the front set way too stiff, and are inducing throttle oversteer to overcome it. Try setting the front bar in the rear-most setting, and adjust your driving. I'm convinced it's you and not the car.
09-21-2009, 07:44 PM
#6
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Va
Posts: 171
Thanks for helping me work though this problem, I'm not try to confuse anyone just trying to get to the bottom of this issue. I only know that my car drove one way and adding these parts made it drive another. The steering feels lighter, if that helps.
The only differences in the bars are the poly bushings and a stronger, lighter material. The panhard bar brace was installed at the same time. I did notice the stock one was flimsy enough to bend slightly when it was on the car. I was just as surprised as you when I was forced to adjust to the front sway bar after installing the parts.
The only differences in the bars are the poly bushings and a stronger, lighter material. The panhard bar brace was installed at the same time. I did notice the stock one was flimsy enough to bend slightly when it was on the car. I was just as surprised as you when I was forced to adjust to the front sway bar after installing the parts.
Last edited by mustangtestuser; 09-21-2009 at 07:51 PM.
09-21-2009, 07:47 PM
#7
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The PHB can be binding, this is an issue because the PHB on an S197 isn't straight, and the bushings get cocked. Also the bushings are stiffer, and the bar reacts a bit faster than with the softer, and notched rubber bushings. But I think it's a bind issue, which is why I recommend, if a PHB is being used, running at least a poly/rod hybrid to make sure it doesn't bind.
I will not go so far to say the front bar full stiff is way too stiff. On the Shelby I run those same bars in the middle up front, some run it soft, a few full stiff. It really depends on a lot of factors like driving style, tires, tire and wheel size, etc. If it works better for you full stiff, great. I think you have bind, which we can fix via a different PHB or a Watts link, or you could go back to a softer rear bar (one of my adjustable hollows when ready, or even stock if you want a big change).
I will not go so far to say the front bar full stiff is way too stiff. On the Shelby I run those same bars in the middle up front, some run it soft, a few full stiff. It really depends on a lot of factors like driving style, tires, tire and wheel size, etc. If it works better for you full stiff, great. I think you have bind, which we can fix via a different PHB or a Watts link, or you could go back to a softer rear bar (one of my adjustable hollows when ready, or even stock if you want a big change).
09-21-2009, 07:55 PM
#8
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To reinforce what RodeoFlyer said the main difference between the stock and the aftermarket panhard setup is the stiffer bushings,i.e. rubber is a lot less stiff than poly.
IMHO other than this change the differences in weight and stiffness are so small that you would have to have a really sensitive backside to note the difference.
IMHO other than this change the differences in weight and stiffness are so small that you would have to have a really sensitive backside to note the difference.
09-21-2009, 08:45 PM
#9
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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Posts: 171
The PHB can be binding, this is an issue because the PHB on an S197 isn't straight, and the bushings get cocked. Also the bushings are stiffer, and the bar reacts a bit faster than with the softer, and notched rubber bushings. But I think it's a bind issue, which is why I recommend, if a PHB is being used, running at least a poly/rod hybrid to make sure it doesn't bind.
I will not go so far to say the front bar full stiff is way too stiff. On the Shelby I run those same bars in the middle up front, some run it soft, a few full stiff. It really depends on a lot of factors like driving style, tires, tire and wheel size, etc. If it works better for you full stiff, great. I think you have bind, which we can fix via a different PHB or a Watts link, or you could go back to a softer rear bar (one of my adjustable hollows when ready, or even stock if you want a big change).
I will not go so far to say the front bar full stiff is way too stiff. On the Shelby I run those same bars in the middle up front, some run it soft, a few full stiff. It really depends on a lot of factors like driving style, tires, tire and wheel size, etc. If it works better for you full stiff, great. I think you have bind, which we can fix via a different PHB or a Watts link, or you could go back to a softer rear bar (one of my adjustable hollows when ready, or even stock if you want a big change).
I'll try adjusting the front sway bar to "full rearward", just as a double check. I'm pretty sure I already tried that in July when I installed these parts.
09-21-2009, 10:08 PM
#10
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Sam, I did some reading and, you know, I think you're dead on about the binding.
As I recall, the front end really wanted to lift up under acceleration after installing the part. It came back down again when I moved the front way bar full forward. Is that what you'd expect? I'm starting to think this part is more gear towards drag racing, than handling.
I should have read the companies site completely, even the parts I didn't buy. Sophn offers a part just like the one you mentioned Sam, probably because the other one binds. (Not that they tell you that when you order the fixed length panhard bar.)
http://www.spohn.net/shop/2005-2008-...int-Combo.html
Application: 2005+ Ford Mustang
"The panhard bar bushings on 2005+ Ford Mustangs have a significant impact on your vehicle's ride, comfort, handling, acceleration, noise and vibration. When the vehicle leans (rolls) in a turn, one side of the chassis moves up relative to the rear axle and the other side moves down. The panhard bar must twist to allow for the axle to articulate, this causes the panhard bar bushings to bind. If this bind becomes excessive, it will raise the rear wheel rate and produce sudden and uncontrolled changes in handling such as snap oversteer.
The factory minimizes this suspension bind by using compliant rubber bushings. These soft bushings help accommodate the necessary motion of the panhard bar during body roll. However, the rubber bushings do not provide much in the way of positive lateral support.
It is common to replace the stock rubber panhard bar bushings with polyurethane bushings to resolve the shortcomings of the factory's soft rubber bushings. The downside of polyurethane bushings is they prevent the necessary movement of the panhard bar during body roll, which in turn produces significant binding in the suspension when the vehicle is cornering. The polyurethane bushings also place high stresses on the panhard bar mounts on the vehicle. Polyurethane bushed panhard bars do not allow for rotation of the panhard bar during cornering because of the stiffness of the bushings."
Thoughts?
As I recall, the front end really wanted to lift up under acceleration after installing the part. It came back down again when I moved the front way bar full forward. Is that what you'd expect? I'm starting to think this part is more gear towards drag racing, than handling.
I should have read the companies site completely, even the parts I didn't buy. Sophn offers a part just like the one you mentioned Sam, probably because the other one binds. (Not that they tell you that when you order the fixed length panhard bar.)
http://www.spohn.net/shop/2005-2008-...int-Combo.html
Application: 2005+ Ford Mustang
"The panhard bar bushings on 2005+ Ford Mustangs have a significant impact on your vehicle's ride, comfort, handling, acceleration, noise and vibration. When the vehicle leans (rolls) in a turn, one side of the chassis moves up relative to the rear axle and the other side moves down. The panhard bar must twist to allow for the axle to articulate, this causes the panhard bar bushings to bind. If this bind becomes excessive, it will raise the rear wheel rate and produce sudden and uncontrolled changes in handling such as snap oversteer.
The factory minimizes this suspension bind by using compliant rubber bushings. These soft bushings help accommodate the necessary motion of the panhard bar during body roll. However, the rubber bushings do not provide much in the way of positive lateral support.
It is common to replace the stock rubber panhard bar bushings with polyurethane bushings to resolve the shortcomings of the factory's soft rubber bushings. The downside of polyurethane bushings is they prevent the necessary movement of the panhard bar during body roll, which in turn produces significant binding in the suspension when the vehicle is cornering. The polyurethane bushings also place high stresses on the panhard bar mounts on the vehicle. Polyurethane bushed panhard bars do not allow for rotation of the panhard bar during cornering because of the stiffness of the bushings."
Thoughts?