Summit Point Track Day - What I Learned about Brakes Part II
11-01-2010, 10:16 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Harrisburg PA
Posts: 1,778
Summit Point Track Day - What I Learned about Brakes Part II
Back at the begining of October I spent the day on the Shenandoah circuit, using a new AP Racing BBK system for the first time (Part I). I had problems with the brakes all day and speculated it was the pads being to aggressive for the available grip.
After that experience I ordered up some Ferodo DS1.11 pads for the front and DS2500 for the rear. This past weekend I did two days on Summit Point with the Potomac PCA club.
Potomac is a big club, there were close to 200 cars present and get this - I was the one and only American car. Never seen that before. There were a couple Audi's, a couple BMWs, a Ferrari 360 and me - the rest were all Porsche. Kind of a Porsche fest. It was a great group of folks, they were very welcoming, many went out of their way to say hello. I ran in their White group (solo advanced intermediates) - really quick and experienced group of about 30 cars. Very courteous, no trains, quick point bys - a real pleasure to drive with those guys and gals (there were several ladies out there).
Both days were dry, clear and cool - low 60s. The motor makes lots of power in these conditions and grip isn't quite a good as on warmer days. The Ferrari guy was parked next to me in the pits. Really nice guy and good driver as well. I spent a couple sessions chasing him around the track, what a pleasure that was. He had the F1 automated manual tranny and made good use of it. Every downshift is accompanied by a perfect throttle blip and that flat-plane crank V8 sounds awesome when you are right behind it. We had several newer GT2's and GT3's in the group - wow...can you say fast. Dang those things can move. Nice cars.
Ok, onto the brakes. Like I said, my last track day I used CL RC8 pads and they felt like an on/off switch. I was constantly into the ABS and couldn't modulate them at all. This time out, the Ferodo pads made a night and day difference. Very, very easy to modulate. You press more, you get more braking, you let up you get less braking. I knew exactly where the brakes were and what they were doing at all times. I could easily push them right up to the lock up point without going over whenever I wanted. Good stuff.
I've long been a proponent of upgrading the OEM brake system (pads, fluid, ducts, lines). This works well for most drivers and it worked well for me until recently. As I gained in experience and moved into the faster run groups what happend with my OEM system was I stated to burn thru pads at an alarming rate. How about 2 days out of a $300 set of pads. Stopping 3K lbs of car running sticky tires from very high speeds will do that. Also pad taper became a real problem - the OEM calipers flex and under extreme use allow the pads to taper (worn on one side much more than on the other). Another problem with the slide rail calipers is, since the pistons are on one side only, as the pads wear the pistons need to move twice as far, leading to a very long, mushy pedal. So, although they will stop the car (most of the time) they just weren't giving me a lot of confidence anymore.
Enter the BBK - I dropped a lot of coin on a new system: 4-piston AP racing calipers and very trick, full floating 2-piece rotors. Now that I got the pads figured out the result is brake nirvana! Here is an example - turn 1 at Summit is brutal on brakes. I go from about 130 down to 50. With the OEM brakes I'd begin braking at the first brake marker if not sooner to get slowed down. With new pads in, I could go deeper but there was always a pucker factor - will she stop or won't she, so I usually stuck with marker 1. This weekend, with the new BBK I quite naturally did the same thing, start braking at marker 1. But I soon realized what I was doing was - brake hard, then coast, then brake again. This is a clear indicator I was braking too early. So, I moved my brake point in to the 2nd marker and still easily made the turn, with complete confidence every time. It was amazing how I could reel those Kraut car in for turn 1. Awesome.
So, my orginal speculation was correct - I initally had the wrong pads. The RC8's out gunned my Nitto NT-01's. The Ferodo's are well matched and it makes all the difference in the world. Like they say - you need the right tool for the job.
Cheers. Anyone still track their cars around here? Not much track day chatter in this section anymore.
After that experience I ordered up some Ferodo DS1.11 pads for the front and DS2500 for the rear. This past weekend I did two days on Summit Point with the Potomac PCA club.
Potomac is a big club, there were close to 200 cars present and get this - I was the one and only American car. Never seen that before. There were a couple Audi's, a couple BMWs, a Ferrari 360 and me - the rest were all Porsche. Kind of a Porsche fest. It was a great group of folks, they were very welcoming, many went out of their way to say hello. I ran in their White group (solo advanced intermediates) - really quick and experienced group of about 30 cars. Very courteous, no trains, quick point bys - a real pleasure to drive with those guys and gals (there were several ladies out there).
Both days were dry, clear and cool - low 60s. The motor makes lots of power in these conditions and grip isn't quite a good as on warmer days. The Ferrari guy was parked next to me in the pits. Really nice guy and good driver as well. I spent a couple sessions chasing him around the track, what a pleasure that was. He had the F1 automated manual tranny and made good use of it. Every downshift is accompanied by a perfect throttle blip and that flat-plane crank V8 sounds awesome when you are right behind it. We had several newer GT2's and GT3's in the group - wow...can you say fast. Dang those things can move. Nice cars.
Ok, onto the brakes. Like I said, my last track day I used CL RC8 pads and they felt like an on/off switch. I was constantly into the ABS and couldn't modulate them at all. This time out, the Ferodo pads made a night and day difference. Very, very easy to modulate. You press more, you get more braking, you let up you get less braking. I knew exactly where the brakes were and what they were doing at all times. I could easily push them right up to the lock up point without going over whenever I wanted. Good stuff.
I've long been a proponent of upgrading the OEM brake system (pads, fluid, ducts, lines). This works well for most drivers and it worked well for me until recently. As I gained in experience and moved into the faster run groups what happend with my OEM system was I stated to burn thru pads at an alarming rate. How about 2 days out of a $300 set of pads. Stopping 3K lbs of car running sticky tires from very high speeds will do that. Also pad taper became a real problem - the OEM calipers flex and under extreme use allow the pads to taper (worn on one side much more than on the other). Another problem with the slide rail calipers is, since the pistons are on one side only, as the pads wear the pistons need to move twice as far, leading to a very long, mushy pedal. So, although they will stop the car (most of the time) they just weren't giving me a lot of confidence anymore.
Enter the BBK - I dropped a lot of coin on a new system: 4-piston AP racing calipers and very trick, full floating 2-piece rotors. Now that I got the pads figured out the result is brake nirvana! Here is an example - turn 1 at Summit is brutal on brakes. I go from about 130 down to 50. With the OEM brakes I'd begin braking at the first brake marker if not sooner to get slowed down. With new pads in, I could go deeper but there was always a pucker factor - will she stop or won't she, so I usually stuck with marker 1. This weekend, with the new BBK I quite naturally did the same thing, start braking at marker 1. But I soon realized what I was doing was - brake hard, then coast, then brake again. This is a clear indicator I was braking too early. So, I moved my brake point in to the 2nd marker and still easily made the turn, with complete confidence every time. It was amazing how I could reel those Kraut car in for turn 1. Awesome.
So, my orginal speculation was correct - I initally had the wrong pads. The RC8's out gunned my Nitto NT-01's. The Ferodo's are well matched and it makes all the difference in the world. Like they say - you need the right tool for the job.
Cheers. Anyone still track their cars around here? Not much track day chatter in this section anymore.
11-02-2010, 04:22 PM
#2
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: PR
Posts: 329
Strange that nobody has replied to this yet, but thank you for sharing your experience with different brake pads. If I tracked I would definitely be swayed by the opinions of someone who has used so many different products.
Too bad I've never even heard of half the pad companies you just named.
Too bad I've never even heard of half the pad companies you just named.
11-02-2010, 04:36 PM
#3
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: FL
Posts: 605
i havent been able to drive my car for a week yet. i have a track weekend this coming weekend but.... well i got the new rotor ring, now im just waiting on the new bolts. this is unfortunate because i need to "season" the new ring.
glad you had fun at your event though! i usually keep up with the GT2's and GT3's. the most impressing car i have ever come across is a supercharged Z06....h o l y S H I I I I TTTTTTT
glad you had fun at your event though! i usually keep up with the GT2's and GT3's. the most impressing car i have ever come across is a supercharged Z06....h o l y S H I I I I TTTTTTT
11-03-2010, 04:46 AM
#5
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
I don't put mine away just stop tracking it for the winter.
The snow tires are going on Friday and then I'll throw the sand in the trunk and look forward to spring.
11-03-2010, 07:39 AM
#6
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Harrisburg PA
Posts: 1,778
i havent been able to drive my car for a week yet. i have a track weekend this coming weekend but.... well i got the new rotor ring, now im just waiting on the new bolts. this is unfortunate because i need to "season" the new ring.
glad you had fun at your event though! i usually keep up with the GT2's and GT3's. the most impressing car i have ever come across is a supercharged Z06....h o l y S H I I I I TTTTTTT
glad you had fun at your event though! i usually keep up with the GT2's and GT3's. the most impressing car i have ever come across is a supercharged Z06....h o l y S H I I I I TTTTTTT
11-03-2010, 03:17 PM
#7
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 238
Or TMP Fri 05 Nov 2pm to 7pm, Sat 06 Nov 9am to 5pm.
Not definate yet. Back on chemo, so have to play it by ear at the last minute. See how I feel. Favoring the DDT though on Sunday.
Regarding this thread, Has anyone had problems fitting the centrecaps on over the hubs with these wheels? Seems to me there was a question about this a while back.
Cheers
11-03-2010, 05:17 PM
#8
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: FL
Posts: 605
. it also helps that we were both using the same kind of tire (PS2) and were on a tight track where their HP advantage on me doesn't really get a chance to show up. i will never forget when i was at Barber this past june (using my dad's Cayman rather than my car), there was a GT3 RS with racing slicks. i gained a true appreciation for the phrase "he ran circles around me".
11-06-2010, 12:59 PM
#9
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 509
What do you have planned for the spring? I want to get out to Summit Point again. I periodically have dreams about the place and finding my lines lol. It doesn't help that fact that 9 guys I work with are all track guys (bikes and euro/imports, but no Stangers). I'll drive an hour and a half to Summit Point any day.
11-06-2010, 04:39 PM
#10
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Harrisburg PA
Posts: 1,778
To cold, ha - don't be a puss, come to VIR on 15-16 Nov. I'll be driving down on Sunday 14th. VIR is unreal, its worlds beyond Summit. Track is so big you need a GPS to find your way around it LOL. With your car you may hit 140-150 or better on the back straight.
Nothing planned for the spring yet. Track Daze always does a spring event at Shenandoah I've been to the last couple years, probably go again. Last time I was there however I was really bottoming out in the bowl. Caused the tire rub the inner fender.
Nothing planned for the spring yet. Track Daze always does a spring event at Shenandoah I've been to the last couple years, probably go again. Last time I was there however I was really bottoming out in the bowl. Caused the tire rub the inner fender.