Panhard vs Watt's Looking For Detailed Info
04-05-2012, 12:01 AM
#91
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 163
That said, after messing around with my Fays2 watts link for the past 4 hours after having it installed for roughly 4 days I managed to get mine quiet. It took me taking it all apart and rebuilding it from scratch again but it's how I should have done it to begin with! I had the nastiest low speed clunking noise and it bothered me. I called Jim up today and he confirmed that everything needs to be pretty precisely measured. The links need to be exactly the same length, all of the bolts need to be torqued exactly to specification. Which, the propeller bolts are a PITA to torque while on the car. But it is now quiet. Now to work on those UMI front swaybar endlinks! :P
04-05-2012, 06:57 AM
#92
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
IMO, the only advantages the Steeda unit has is weight (it weighs less supposedly) and it uses polyurethane bushings rather than rod ends which is supposed to be less harsh to drive on.
That said, after messing around with my Fays2 watts link for the past 4 hours after having it installed for roughly 4 days I managed to get mine quiet. It took me taking it all apart and rebuilding it from scratch again but it's how I should have done it to begin with! I had the nastiest low speed clunking noise and it bothered me. I called Jim up today and he confirmed that everything needs to be pretty precisely measured. The links need to be exactly the same length, all of the bolts need to be torqued exactly to specification. Which, the propeller bolts are a PITA to torque while on the car. But it is now quiet. Now to work on those UMI front swaybar endlinks! :P
That said, after messing around with my Fays2 watts link for the past 4 hours after having it installed for roughly 4 days I managed to get mine quiet. It took me taking it all apart and rebuilding it from scratch again but it's how I should have done it to begin with! I had the nastiest low speed clunking noise and it bothered me. I called Jim up today and he confirmed that everything needs to be pretty precisely measured. The links need to be exactly the same length, all of the bolts need to be torqued exactly to specification. Which, the propeller bolts are a PITA to torque while on the car. But it is now quiet. Now to work on those UMI front swaybar endlinks! :P
Mine has been on for over two years and was getting noisy because the rod ends wear out. after putting in a new set of rods ends and O-rings from Jim it is nice and quiet now on the street.
On the track I'm getting rattling between the link and exhaust but that is only since
the dealer replaced the clutch so I suspect the exhaust is slightly out of alignment.
04-05-2012, 08:56 AM
#93
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 163
Did you use the O-rings when you installed yours?
Mine has been on for over two years and was getting noisy because the rod ends wear out. after putting in a new set of rods ends and O-rings from Jim it is nice and quiet now on the street.
On the track I'm getting rattling between the link and exhaust but that is only since
the dealer replaced the clutch so I suspect the exhaust is slightly out of alignment.
Mine has been on for over two years and was getting noisy because the rod ends wear out. after putting in a new set of rods ends and O-rings from Jim it is nice and quiet now on the street.
On the track I'm getting rattling between the link and exhaust but that is only since
the dealer replaced the clutch so I suspect the exhaust is slightly out of alignment.
04-05-2012, 04:23 PM
#94
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
The function the same way. Fays2 is more cost effective, Steeda a tiny bit (only a few pounds) lighter. Steeda has urethane bushings so it's quiet, Fays2 uses rod-ends and they can make a little noise, though it's rarely a complaint. I do think the Fays2 is better value and I sell a lot more of those than the Steeda. I have no issue with the Steeda, and for a pure street car it's a more quiet design and a little quicker to setup... but it's very costly and IMHO doesn't need to be as expensive as it is.
04-06-2012, 01:21 PM
#95
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 11
I think I'd sell a lot more Steeda's if they were a few hundred bucks less to be honest.
The function the same way. Fays2 is more cost effective, Steeda a tiny bit (only a few pounds) lighter. Steeda has urethane bushings so it's quiet, Fays2 uses rod-ends and they can make a little noise, though it's rarely a complaint. I do think the Fays2 is better value and I sell a lot more of those than the Steeda. I have no issue with the Steeda, and for a pure street car it's a more quiet design and a little quicker to setup... but it's very costly and IMHO doesn't need to be as expensive as it is.
The function the same way. Fays2 is more cost effective, Steeda a tiny bit (only a few pounds) lighter. Steeda has urethane bushings so it's quiet, Fays2 uses rod-ends and they can make a little noise, though it's rarely a complaint. I do think the Fays2 is better value and I sell a lot more of those than the Steeda. I have no issue with the Steeda, and for a pure street car it's a more quiet design and a little quicker to setup... but it's very costly and IMHO doesn't need to be as expensive as it is.
Sam, I know you prefer phone contacts, but I'd like to throw my parts list at you via email, if you wouldn't mind having a look. Would that be kosher? No rush, I just bought some pricey bits for one of my bikes, so I won't be able to drop the cash for another week or two, at the earliest.
04-06-2012, 08:53 PM
#97
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 163
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCBOm...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFi9C...1&feature=plcp
04-06-2012, 10:08 PM
#98
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 645
04-07-2012, 07:38 AM
#99
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Detroit Area
Posts: 894
Whiskey, thanks for all the great posts.
My input is based on having the stock set up for two months and really noticing the butt skip involved with going over bumps and dips while cornering, it was a feeling like the rear was being re-positioned very quickly to the outside of the turn. It was unsettling and noticed by passengers, "what was that?" they would say, as they felt also the momentary loss of rear traction in the turn.
Then I had my initial suspension change out with Saleen and Steeda parts, and the adjustable pan hard bar and stronger brace was part of it. Way better ride all around in corners, but the butt skip was still present for sure.
Then I did a few other things to my car and got the Generation 1 Watts Link from Saleen. This mostly eliminated all the butt skip effect on hard corners with bumps. The original problem with that design from Saleen was that the center bolt into the pumpkin had broken in some cars, and they did not have the action arms quite long enough or a sufficient support bar, so reports of these failures were coming in on the forums. Saleen was aware of these failures from early on and finally recalled the part. My original Saleen Watts Link was the re-issue of the first generation design which included a support bar, but no other improvements. It worked decently, but was not ideal.
Then Saleen released the generation 2 Watts Link which had longer action arms from 16 and some inches to seventeen and some inches with an improved support bar, and that was reported to allow no lateral movement over bumps, dips and curve bumps. It still had a weak center bolt though, and bolt failures were still reported. Saleen still denied reports of failures, and this is when their company was collapsing and dissolving.
I didn't feel comfortable any more with my watts link after hearing of the failures, so I picked up a very good price on the Techco Watts Link which was better made with stronger better materials and bolt with the correct action arm lengths. It works great, and there is no lateral travel whatsoever over bumps, dips, and hard rough corners. It is quiet as well in my case. It feels the same as my IRS car does in hard corners now.
The center pumpkin design works well, but most prefer the Fayes/Steeda/ Griggs design. If mine fails, I will buy the Fayes model I guess. Erik
My input is based on having the stock set up for two months and really noticing the butt skip involved with going over bumps and dips while cornering, it was a feeling like the rear was being re-positioned very quickly to the outside of the turn. It was unsettling and noticed by passengers, "what was that?" they would say, as they felt also the momentary loss of rear traction in the turn.
Then I had my initial suspension change out with Saleen and Steeda parts, and the adjustable pan hard bar and stronger brace was part of it. Way better ride all around in corners, but the butt skip was still present for sure.
Then I did a few other things to my car and got the Generation 1 Watts Link from Saleen. This mostly eliminated all the butt skip effect on hard corners with bumps. The original problem with that design from Saleen was that the center bolt into the pumpkin had broken in some cars, and they did not have the action arms quite long enough or a sufficient support bar, so reports of these failures were coming in on the forums. Saleen was aware of these failures from early on and finally recalled the part. My original Saleen Watts Link was the re-issue of the first generation design which included a support bar, but no other improvements. It worked decently, but was not ideal.
Then Saleen released the generation 2 Watts Link which had longer action arms from 16 and some inches to seventeen and some inches with an improved support bar, and that was reported to allow no lateral movement over bumps, dips and curve bumps. It still had a weak center bolt though, and bolt failures were still reported. Saleen still denied reports of failures, and this is when their company was collapsing and dissolving.
I didn't feel comfortable any more with my watts link after hearing of the failures, so I picked up a very good price on the Techco Watts Link which was better made with stronger better materials and bolt with the correct action arm lengths. It works great, and there is no lateral travel whatsoever over bumps, dips, and hard rough corners. It is quiet as well in my case. It feels the same as my IRS car does in hard corners now.
The center pumpkin design works well, but most prefer the Fayes/Steeda/ Griggs design. If mine fails, I will buy the Fayes model I guess. Erik
04-07-2012, 09:34 AM
#100
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 163
Whiskey, thanks for all the great posts.
My input is based on having the stock set up for two months and really noticing the butt skip involved with going over bumps and dips while cornering, it was a feeling like the rear was being re-positioned very quickly to the outside of the turn. It was unsettling and noticed by passengers, "what was that?" they would say, as they felt also the momentary loss of rear traction in the turn.
Then I had my initial suspension change out with Saleen and Steeda parts, and the adjustable pan hard bar and stronger brace was part of it. Way better ride all around in corners, but the butt skip was still present for sure.
Then I did a few other things to my car and got the Generation 1 Watts Link from Saleen. This mostly eliminated all the butt skip effect on hard corners with bumps. The original problem with that design from Saleen was that the center bolt into the pumpkin had broken in some cars, and they did not have the action arms quite long enough or a sufficient support bar, so reports of these failures were coming in on the forums. Saleen was aware of these failures from early on and finally recalled the part. My original Saleen Watts Link was the re-issue of the first generation design which included a support bar, but no other improvements. It worked decently, but was not ideal.
Then Saleen released the generation 2 Watts Link which had longer action arms from 16 and some inches to seventeen and some inches with an improved support bar, and that was reported to allow no lateral movement over bumps, dips and curve bumps. It still had a weak center bolt though, and bolt failures were still reported. Saleen still denied reports of failures, and this is when their company was collapsing and dissolving.
I didn't feel comfortable any more with my watts link after hearing of the failures, so I picked up a very good price on the Techco Watts Link which was better made with stronger better materials and bolt with the correct action arm lengths. It works great, and there is no lateral travel whatsoever over bumps, dips, and hard rough corners. It is quiet as well in my case. It feels the same as my IRS car does in hard corners now.
The center pumpkin design works well, but most prefer the Fayes/Steeda/ Griggs design. If mine fails, I will buy the Fayes model I guess. Erik
My input is based on having the stock set up for two months and really noticing the butt skip involved with going over bumps and dips while cornering, it was a feeling like the rear was being re-positioned very quickly to the outside of the turn. It was unsettling and noticed by passengers, "what was that?" they would say, as they felt also the momentary loss of rear traction in the turn.
Then I had my initial suspension change out with Saleen and Steeda parts, and the adjustable pan hard bar and stronger brace was part of it. Way better ride all around in corners, but the butt skip was still present for sure.
Then I did a few other things to my car and got the Generation 1 Watts Link from Saleen. This mostly eliminated all the butt skip effect on hard corners with bumps. The original problem with that design from Saleen was that the center bolt into the pumpkin had broken in some cars, and they did not have the action arms quite long enough or a sufficient support bar, so reports of these failures were coming in on the forums. Saleen was aware of these failures from early on and finally recalled the part. My original Saleen Watts Link was the re-issue of the first generation design which included a support bar, but no other improvements. It worked decently, but was not ideal.
Then Saleen released the generation 2 Watts Link which had longer action arms from 16 and some inches to seventeen and some inches with an improved support bar, and that was reported to allow no lateral movement over bumps, dips and curve bumps. It still had a weak center bolt though, and bolt failures were still reported. Saleen still denied reports of failures, and this is when their company was collapsing and dissolving.
I didn't feel comfortable any more with my watts link after hearing of the failures, so I picked up a very good price on the Techco Watts Link which was better made with stronger better materials and bolt with the correct action arm lengths. It works great, and there is no lateral travel whatsoever over bumps, dips, and hard rough corners. It is quiet as well in my case. It feels the same as my IRS car does in hard corners now.
The center pumpkin design works well, but most prefer the Fayes/Steeda/ Griggs design. If mine fails, I will buy the Fayes model I guess. Erik
With the Watts the rear end feels free to rotate and it took some getting used to after autocrossing it in stock form last year and daily driving it since february of 2009. Near my house, and in those videos you can kinda see towards the end, there is a tight, right hand, down hill turn followed by a sudden and quick left hand uphill sweeper. I remember the first night I drove with the watts link I took that corner the transition almost felt like the rear end was moving drastically laterally under the car, in reality (and the second video shows) what is happening is a liberal amount of throttle oversteer that the PHB geometry would have caused a huge mess with. Slightly disconcerting (I'm paranoid about my car breaking down) as the feel from the driver seat was almost like the back end was moving feet left and then right but in reality, it was the chassis having superb reaction to transitions and was changing direction mid slide as the tires gripped from the loads!
At the first autocross I noticed much better chassis balance despite having fully stock bars. Understeer only when cooking a corner too hot or when cranking the wheel over too quick unlike with the stock set up the car would understeer like mad and if touched the throttle it would worsen, if you slalomed with it and tried applying more throttle it would upset, this car just turned and went on its way with minimal fuss!
I love it, and the event on April 22nd can't get here soon enough to try it out with all the suspension bits that have been added.
Last edited by Whiskey11; 04-08-2012 at 10:37 PM.