Carbotech vs. Hawk Pads
03-08-2012, 11:57 AM
#1
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: WI
Posts: 107
Carbotech vs. Hawk Pads
In the Market for track pads. Narrowed it down to two brands, Carbotech and Hawk.
CarbotechSince Carbotech compounds are compatible with each other I’m planning on running them on street and track. For street Bobcat’s in the front and XP8’s in the rear. The reason for XP8 in rear is to avoid switching for track use since they are a track compound, they said that since the rear only see’s 30% of the braking force the XP8’s for street will yield minimal to no noise and some dust. The other option was to go with Bobcats in the rear for street and track, the issue here is that on some tracks I may run the Bobcats may not suffice. For the track I’ll run XP10’s in the front. The downside is that the cost for this set up will be about $555, the good news is that I can use the same rotors and they are reportedly easier on rotors than Hawk.
HawkForum members said their compounds are compatible but I spoke to them and they said no? For street I’m planning on HPS front and rear and then HP+ for the track in the front keeping the HPS in the rear. The good here is that the total cost is $338 but the bad is that if they are not compatible I’ll need a second set of routers for the front and they are also rougher on rotors than Carbotech. Also not sure if the HPS in rear can handle track duty.
Any thoughts?
CarbotechSince Carbotech compounds are compatible with each other I’m planning on running them on street and track. For street Bobcat’s in the front and XP8’s in the rear. The reason for XP8 in rear is to avoid switching for track use since they are a track compound, they said that since the rear only see’s 30% of the braking force the XP8’s for street will yield minimal to no noise and some dust. The other option was to go with Bobcats in the rear for street and track, the issue here is that on some tracks I may run the Bobcats may not suffice. For the track I’ll run XP10’s in the front. The downside is that the cost for this set up will be about $555, the good news is that I can use the same rotors and they are reportedly easier on rotors than Hawk.
HawkForum members said their compounds are compatible but I spoke to them and they said no? For street I’m planning on HPS front and rear and then HP+ for the track in the front keeping the HPS in the rear. The good here is that the total cost is $338 but the bad is that if they are not compatible I’ll need a second set of routers for the front and they are also rougher on rotors than Carbotech. Also not sure if the HPS in rear can handle track duty.
Any thoughts?
03-08-2012, 02:05 PM
#2
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 155
I used Carbotech XP8/10 all season last year, road and track, and they still have some life left. I also have brake ducts. Three of my "local" tracks are hard on brakes, and one (Mosport) is not.
Carbotechs are sensitive (low pedal pressure), and don't seem to be affected by temperature. They work great cold and hot. My discs seem fine after a season of use, but I haven't measured them. Carbotechs seem fine for the street.
But, they are noisy as hell! "So what?" you say. They squeal so bad I look for buses to pull up next to so people don't realize it's my car.
Carbotechs are sensitive (low pedal pressure), and don't seem to be affected by temperature. They work great cold and hot. My discs seem fine after a season of use, but I haven't measured them. Carbotechs seem fine for the street.
But, they are noisy as hell! "So what?" you say. They squeal so bad I look for buses to pull up next to so people don't realize it's my car.
03-08-2012, 04:31 PM
#3
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
I used Carbotech XP8/10 all season last year, road and track, and they still have some life left. I also have brake ducts. Three of my "local" tracks are hard on brakes, and one (Mosport) is not.
Carbotechs are sensitive (low pedal pressure), and don't seem to be affected by temperature. They work great cold and hot. My discs seem fine after a season of use, but I haven't measured them. Carbotechs seem fine for the street.
But, they are noisy as hell! "So what?" you say. They squeal so bad I look for buses to pull up next to so people don't realize it's my car.
Carbotechs are sensitive (low pedal pressure), and don't seem to be affected by temperature. They work great cold and hot. My discs seem fine after a season of use, but I haven't measured them. Carbotechs seem fine for the street.
But, they are noisy as hell! "So what?" you say. They squeal so bad I look for buses to pull up next to so people don't realize it's my car.
The pads went in last spring and have stayed there for 7 tracks days and limited street driving.
They actually squeal like 4 stuck pigs and sometimes seem to all have a different tone. It can get quite musical.
I ran the stock for rotors all last year after they were swapped in in the spring.
Tomorrow new pads, rotors, ATE SuperBlue and XP10s are gong in ready for this season.
April 1 Mosport DTT and April 10 & 11 VIR Full Course
03-08-2012, 07:07 PM
#4
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: BC
Posts: 244
It's strange that Hawk doesn't get more love on the various forums I hang around on. Mustang drivers seem to gravitate to Carbotech, PFC and Raybestos. Even in the couple of paddocks I hang around in, nobody has Hawks. The Porsche and BMW guys use Pagid or PFC. It's hard to figure out why because Hawk seems to be on every shelf.
03-08-2012, 07:14 PM
#5
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 509
I run either Hawk HT10s or HP+s up front with HP+s out back. Believe it or not, I've been running HP+s front and back on the street and track since the summer of last year (haven't seen the track since October, though). The other day I pulled the pads to replace them with Hawk Ceramics and they still had half their life left. So, we'll say 6 or 7 track days and extensive street duty on this setup? Even wear on all four corners.
They do squeel like a bastard, though...but reports are they're not as bad as the Carbotechs. They do make my gloss-black wheels look like ash because they dust so much.
Only my HP+s showed any fade on me. I just think I was running the HP+s hotter than what they're suppose to run, though.
They do squeel like a bastard, though...but reports are they're not as bad as the Carbotechs. They do make my gloss-black wheels look like ash because they dust so much.
Only my HP+s showed any fade on me. I just think I was running the HP+s hotter than what they're suppose to run, though.
03-09-2012, 08:22 AM
#7
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Location: Toronto
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03-09-2012, 09:23 AM
#8
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: WI
Posts: 107
I think Carbotech it is. Compound compatibility and easy on rotors are key. Street will see bobcats all around, Xp10 front for track. I'm going to see how the bobcats do in the rear, if I see signs of failure I'll switch to XP8.
03-09-2012, 11:53 AM
#9
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Kansas
Posts: 178
I've tried both on different cars; Hawk DTC-60s on a Mazdaspeed6, and Carbotech on my Mustang, WRXs, RX-8s, etc. The Hawks decidedly last longer, but are almost too aggressive if that's possible. They bite so hard that it's harder to modulate, and they literally appear to be machining the rotors as you use them.
Carbotechs don't last as long, but I just like them. Easy to modulate to a very fine resolution, they don't kill the rotors in short order, and they're very streetable other than the squealing.
As for pad compatibility, I think that often gets overstated. I used to be a diehard believer, but I run OEM PFC (upgrade) pads on my 2010 GT with stock brakes and switch over to Carbotechs front and rear for track days and have had zero issues going either direction. Same goes for my last few cars as far as OEM pads being ok with Hawk or Carbotech track pads and vice-versa. Just haven't had any issues. Not to say you won't, but that's my experience.
Also, I wouldn't think Bobcats would survive long on track, even in the rear. And by running them you are also mechanically biasing your brakes forward pretty significantly (due to friction coefficients being notably different between Bobcats and XP10s), which probably isn't a good thing. I have run XP10s up front with XP8s rear, but when I get new rear pads they'll be XP10s so I'm running the same thing all around. I'd think you could get away with just buying front and rear XP10s and just swapping between those and your OEMs for track days, thereby saving you some money. I'd certainly try that route first anyway.
Last thing, I suspect it's true for all pads but once you get down to a third or so of pad material remaining the wear on Carbotechs accelerates significantly. If you're down that low, check them after each session just to be sure. Good luck!
Carbotechs don't last as long, but I just like them. Easy to modulate to a very fine resolution, they don't kill the rotors in short order, and they're very streetable other than the squealing.
As for pad compatibility, I think that often gets overstated. I used to be a diehard believer, but I run OEM PFC (upgrade) pads on my 2010 GT with stock brakes and switch over to Carbotechs front and rear for track days and have had zero issues going either direction. Same goes for my last few cars as far as OEM pads being ok with Hawk or Carbotech track pads and vice-versa. Just haven't had any issues. Not to say you won't, but that's my experience.
Also, I wouldn't think Bobcats would survive long on track, even in the rear. And by running them you are also mechanically biasing your brakes forward pretty significantly (due to friction coefficients being notably different between Bobcats and XP10s), which probably isn't a good thing. I have run XP10s up front with XP8s rear, but when I get new rear pads they'll be XP10s so I'm running the same thing all around. I'd think you could get away with just buying front and rear XP10s and just swapping between those and your OEMs for track days, thereby saving you some money. I'd certainly try that route first anyway.
Last thing, I suspect it's true for all pads but once you get down to a third or so of pad material remaining the wear on Carbotechs accelerates significantly. If you're down that low, check them after each session just to be sure. Good luck!
03-09-2012, 01:49 PM
#10
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,397
dude, the hawk hp+ pads simply aren't up to a heavy car and aggressive driver on the track. i ran those pads and not only did they wear out quickly, they also faded after only a few laps to the point i would have to take a cool down lap around the track. granted my track is hard on brakes.
i had dot 4 fluid in the car with the hawk pads, the pedal still had feel (though it was a bit spongier than when the pads were cool) but the car didn't stop. i was having a combination of fluid overheat and pad overheat apparently but the pedal always came back firm after the brakes cooled pointing to the pads as the main failure. i swapped to carbotech RP2 front compound and XP8 rear on the track and i use the bobcat pads on the street and leave the xp8 in the rear.
on the track the rp2, which is comparable to the XP10 but the rp2 is an endurance pad for longer life, and the XP 8 rears are tremendous. not one single sign of fade after a 20 minute session and at the end of the day the rp2 pads still looked brand new. on the street the xp8 rears do squeal and the bobcats do too, but no where near as bad as the HP+ pads i was running on track and street. i also swapped to brembo lcf 600+ fluid at the same time and i highly recommend that too, the pedal stays firm and activation starts at the same place lap one to lap 10. i found the other dot 4 fluid didn't necessarily boil, but when hot the pedal traveled further before the brakes activated due to compression of the fluid. that gave me issues with heel toe in the corners due to the brake pedal being lower than the throttle YMMV.
i would never recommend those hawk pads to anyone, they just aren't up to track duty if you are aggressive. i would recommend the carbotechs to anyone. if you will swap between fronts for track and street you will either need to run bobcats on the street or swap your front rotors or you will run into material compatibility issues.
edit: it's also worth noting that when talking to the carbotech owners son (i forget his name, Jim?) he mentioned that the HP+ and the bobcat pads were in the same heat range of 800-degrees max before they would fade. the Rp2 and XP10 and XP8 are all good for up to 1600. i also forgot to mention i used half the HP+ pad life in about 300 miles of street driving and one track day of four ~20min sessions.
Also i found it interesting that the HP+ pads would fade after 2-3 hot laps on my car. the rp2 pads and xp8 pads were still squealing, indicating they weren't up to ideal operating temps yet, on the 3rd lap pulling comparable lap times that i ran on the HP+ pads.
i had dot 4 fluid in the car with the hawk pads, the pedal still had feel (though it was a bit spongier than when the pads were cool) but the car didn't stop. i was having a combination of fluid overheat and pad overheat apparently but the pedal always came back firm after the brakes cooled pointing to the pads as the main failure. i swapped to carbotech RP2 front compound and XP8 rear on the track and i use the bobcat pads on the street and leave the xp8 in the rear.
on the track the rp2, which is comparable to the XP10 but the rp2 is an endurance pad for longer life, and the XP 8 rears are tremendous. not one single sign of fade after a 20 minute session and at the end of the day the rp2 pads still looked brand new. on the street the xp8 rears do squeal and the bobcats do too, but no where near as bad as the HP+ pads i was running on track and street. i also swapped to brembo lcf 600+ fluid at the same time and i highly recommend that too, the pedal stays firm and activation starts at the same place lap one to lap 10. i found the other dot 4 fluid didn't necessarily boil, but when hot the pedal traveled further before the brakes activated due to compression of the fluid. that gave me issues with heel toe in the corners due to the brake pedal being lower than the throttle YMMV.
i would never recommend those hawk pads to anyone, they just aren't up to track duty if you are aggressive. i would recommend the carbotechs to anyone. if you will swap between fronts for track and street you will either need to run bobcats on the street or swap your front rotors or you will run into material compatibility issues.
edit: it's also worth noting that when talking to the carbotech owners son (i forget his name, Jim?) he mentioned that the HP+ and the bobcat pads were in the same heat range of 800-degrees max before they would fade. the Rp2 and XP10 and XP8 are all good for up to 1600. i also forgot to mention i used half the HP+ pad life in about 300 miles of street driving and one track day of four ~20min sessions.
Also i found it interesting that the HP+ pads would fade after 2-3 hot laps on my car. the rp2 pads and xp8 pads were still squealing, indicating they weren't up to ideal operating temps yet, on the 3rd lap pulling comparable lap times that i ran on the HP+ pads.
Last edited by ShaneM; 03-09-2012 at 01:57 PM.