UrS4

1st Disclaimer: I know, I know, I personally have asked suspension questions before and yet I'm still riding a somewhat stock suspension set up. So what gives? My need for "believing" that I am purchasing the "right" products for my desired outcome keeps getting jumbled up with curiosity that something better is about to come to market.

Q: Can someone with infinitely more knowledge than me accurately rank lowering springs with regards to spring rate and progressive vs linear from soft to stiff?

Springs:
FRPP K
Eibach pro-kit, sportline
Steeda Sport
Steeda Ultralite
Steeda Competition
Roush
Saleen
H&R sport, super sport, race
Boss springs

Q: Can someone rank the following non adjustable struts and compare them to the following adjustable struts (ie. at what setting would the Tokikos or Konis be set to equal Bilstein HD)?

Struts:
FRPP
Eibach Pro-kit
Steeda
Roush
Saleen
Koni STR.T
Koni Sport
Tokiko HP
Tokiko D-specs
Bilstein HD

2nd Disclaimer: I know I will get the reply, what is your goal with the car?

Goal: 1-1.25 inch drop, aggressive street driving, tolerable ride for road trips, 1-2 HPDE a year max. I honestly will not routinely adjust the struts for track vs road trip. That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy an adjustable strut, I just would have it set once on install and not touch it again. I have 65000 miles on the stock springs and struts, I know my strut mounts are popping.

3rd Disclaimer: I know I will get the reply, just call Sam Strano.

He is an expert and I'm sure he will give me straight advise but if his prices are not the lowest then I won't buy from him so therefore I will not call him and steal his knowledge without giving him my business, it's not fair in my book.

4th Disclaimer: I know I will get the reply, just search!

I've read nearly all the threads about the various springs and shocks over the years but since I don't have the disposable income to try several sets of springs and struts, I'm looking the for goldie locks "just right" set up from the start.

Also, this if my understanding of the following:
If the front end is lowered less than 1.5 inches, camber is the only thing that will be affected. With the desired effect of -1 degree camber, which Strut mounts are needed?

GT500 mounts (non adjustable)
Steeda HD mounts (camber only)
MM caster/camber plates

I plan on getting F and R sway bars as well, probably strano adjustable bars because they are superior bars at an unbeatable price.

Sorry for the long post!

Norm Peterson

Given this goal . . .

it gets really easy to simply recommend the Koni Sports and Steeda HD mounts.

There's nothing wrong with finding whatever damper settings work best overall for you and just leaving them there. The point is that you have the ability to find that point. A perhaps secondary benefit is that since you'll be unlikely to find those settings at 'full-stiff', you'll be left with some adjustment remaining to cover for either wear - or a change in your own preference. Setting them is a DIY thing - and adjusting them only takes about 1 minute per corner including the time it takes to open and close the hood and trunk. You can fab your own adjusting tool that makes hitting the same number of turns much easier/repeatable than it is with the little plastic ***** that Koni supplies.

There will be sufficient range of camber adjustment in the HD mounts to let you experiment with that as well. FWIW, -1° is only mildly aggressive for an average driver's daily driving, barely adequate if the DD sees lots of enthusiastic cornering, and decidedly too mild for track days (beyond the first time trying one out to see if that's something you really want to do).

Toe is affected slightly by lowering and should at least be checked when you reset the camber after the lowering. I honestly haven't bothered to investigate caster changes as a function of lowering, but for only an inch or a little more this should not end up a whole lot different from wherever it is now (nominally +7.1° with a tolerance of 0.75° either way from there).


There is a table of S197 spring rates floating around here somewhere, although there has been a little disagreement as to some of the rates. I could provide that information as an Excel spreadsheet that you can sort for yourself (.xls files cannot be attached to posts).

Since the spring rates and amounts lowered vary even within your range and because setting the rear bar stiffness should come after you've selected springs and a front bar setting, it's a good idea to work with both bars being adjustable. Note that Sam carries two bar sets, the known difference being the rear bar diameters (approximately 22mm & 25mm). I do not know whether the wall thicknesses on those two rear bars are the same.



Full disclosure - I'm running the Koni Sports, Steeda HD mounts, and Sam's original bar set with the 22mm rear bar. OE springs because I still haven't quite found what I'm looking for (mainly, I'm looking for less than 1" lowering). And substantially more than -1° camber. Outside of not having aftermarket springs but having that extra -camber instead, I think you'd find it comes pretty close to your listed goal. I had a similar goal in mind.



Norm

Norm Peterson

Eventually, you'll likely be in the market for something like 18 x 9.5" wheels with 255/45's or 275/40's at all four corners.


Norm

UrS4

Thanks Norm,

A couple more questions...

Is fair to say that both the drop and spring rate of the following are the same?

FRPP K springs = Eibach Pro-kit = Steeda sport = Roush = Saleen = H&R sport (same stiffness and 1-1.5 in drop)

Eibach Sportline = Steeda Extreme sport = H&R super sport (same stiffness as above but with 1.5-2 in drop)

Steeda competition = Boss lowering springs (much stiffer and both drop less than 1 inch)

It is my understanding that the FRPP, Eibach, Roush, and Saleen are a progressive spring and the stock mustang GT spring, Steeda sport, Steeda Competition, Boss springs, and H&R sport are linear, is this accurate?

Also, the progressive springs when under heavy load have the same stiffness as the linear springs, is this accurate?

Among the non-adjustable shocks are they basically the same in terms of "firmness" and that they are all firmer than stock?

Would you say the non-adjustables are still softer than either the Tokiko or Koni at full soft? I understand that the Konis are the firmest of all and should be paired with the Steeda competition or Boss springs, is this a fair statement?

Yes, I plan to go with larger tires and wheels, however another question. With the 17s since there is more give in the taller sidewall, the fender gap is less than if the wheels were 20s, given overall diameter identical. Or is it that the whole car sits lower dur to sidewall give and the gap stays the same? Therefore a 275/40/18 would be a smaller diameter tire (less than 27.1 which is stock) and have a bigger fender gap, correct?

Lastly, I do plan on adjustable sway bars and will go with Strano's new package but probably not get the fancy endliks.

Thanks Norm

Norm Peterson

[QUOTE=UrS4;8024148]Similar but not identical.


I don't think the H&R Sport is linear.


As long as all of the closely-wound coils remain closed up against each other, they will have a linear rate over that range. This will not necessarily be the same rate as anybody's linear-rate springs. All bets are off if the closely spaced coils do not all bottom out against each other at the same time.


Replacement shocks and struts tend to be valved slightly stiffer than stock (I think mostly to crutch suspension bushing 'aging').


At best, you can perhaps compare this within one manufacturer, i.e. Koni Sport vs STRt, Tokico HD vs D-spec. The damping philosophies vary from one mfr to the next, and it's too hard to separate "softer" as defined by ride harshness from "softer" in terms of rebound control over the springs.


In theory, that is probably true. But not by enough to matter, and certainly not by enough to cover for the fact that a smaller diameter tire leaves more gap. Most of the difference in vertical tire stiffness shows up between the wheel and the road.

Keep in mind that a tire that starts out at 27.0" OD will have worn down to about 26.5" by the time it hits the wear bars, so (my opinion) it's not worth worrying about "wheel gap" differences less than about 1/2 of that 1/2".


Norm

Sam Strano

Whew... I'm sure I won't cover every question brought up here. But let me address some stuff as best I can.

There is not "right answer" that you can just pull out of the air. Picking parts is not easy, and if you haven't had a lot of experience with a lot of parts, it's even tougher. Hell, I can't try everything on that list, but I'd bet I've run more of those things, combinations of those things, and things that aren't on that list at all than anyone else around here has.

Some folks want super stiff springs and small, or stock swaybars. Some run mongo bars and really soft springs. Some use really soft springs and medium bars, etc, etc. and on it goes until your head explodes. As great as the internet is for some things, it's HORRIBLE for things like this. You cannot, let me reiterate, CANNOT gather enough detailed information in print to make smart decisions. Worse a lot of hair-brained thoughts make it through (no censoring), and if the joker who said it writes well, it can seem feasible. I am super, duper, uber frustrated that my job has largely turned into debunking things that have little basis in truth or reality. I seriously wish I had a dime for every time I heard this exact phrase "I read on the internet...." My god, you might as well walk up to the next stranger you see on the street exiting from his or her Mustang and ask them what they think. You actually know MORE about them than you do most people here. Think about it.

Because of that, I would urge you to the do the opposite, and call me sooner than later so you aren't confused by a million things that don't matter, or aren't true. I'm all for you learning how shocks work, etc... I'm not asking you just listen to anything I say and have no questions.

Springs. Lots of pretty good ones, a few ****ty ones. Unlike most vendors I sell a lot of the springs on that list. I've used about 50% of them. I also have others that aren't on the list. I can't try them all, I won't try them all. I want certain information to even consider them (like spring rates, working rates vs. take up rates, etc.). I know the springs I know, I know how they work, and I tend to stick with what I know works. I have favorites, and ones I recommend a lot. I will NOT always recommend the same thing to everyone, because *I* try and get you setup with the stuff that I think will make *YOU* the most happy. I can't do that unless we talk and have a serious, honest conversation.

Say you have decent springs already in your possession, I won't force you to change if I think the springs are ok. If you can do better I'll tell you and why I think so. Otherwise we go on and fix the more important stuff. Same with shocks, or whatever. I could tell you to dump everything you have because it's a mess. I might also say you don't need much but one thing. Depends.

You cannot get the information you want about the struts and shocks. Being adjustable doesn't mean they will all share a common damping point, or even damping curve. There are generalizations you can make. I tend to prefer Koni's over the others. I also sell Bilstien, and Tokico. I hate the non-adjustable FRPP stuff it rides like ***, and the adjustable ones are just rebadged Tokico's anyway. Ask a vendor who primarily sells Tokico and what do you think they will say? Ask one who does a ****-ton of Bilstein, what do you think they will say? They will argue I do a lot of Koni, and what do you think I will say. True, but unlike some of them, I also sell those other brands. I've in fact used and won Championships on both Tokico's and Bilstien's at various times too... and I do prefer Koni's.

Let me make sure you understand that I know you don't have money to waste on lots of setups. Hence the reasons I do what I do. It pisses those that have a need for instant gratification off, because they often just want to to buy parts. I don't get that, I'm more like you, I hate wasting money and having to re-do things again because I was rash.

I will readily admit I'm not always Mr. Sunshine, and I wish I could change that about myself. I'm also not a bad guy and most that know me know I'm actually kind of fun. But I have a very low tolerance for bull, and I much prefer you ask a question if you have it than to pretend you know something you don't. That only serves to make things worse for everyone, more complicated and frankly it's not hard for me to tell.

Bottom line: Figure out what about the car's behavior you don't like. Call me, we'll work from there.

Norm Peterson

Sam, that was needless and not very subtle.

You could have taken the high road and simply corrected the content related to this thread. I'd have thanked you for the corrections, edited my post, and that would have been that.


You've noted on a number of occasions your frustration with people who pick your brain and spend elsewhere, and what you've been tempted to do about it.

Can you not see that a similar situation exists where unqualified recommendations are given (some of mine even pre-date your presence here on MustangForums) when the entity receiving those recommendations (that's you) occasionally turns and bites? With "internet mechanics", engineers, and FRRAX as historical background (that folks here don't know about), and now this (that some do or will) . . . let's just say that even my patience has limits.



I'm going to go back and edit my earlier post anyway.

And I'll attach a little more of the spring data that has been posted here at one time or another. Corrections are encouraged (especially yours, Sam).


Norm

Sam Strano

Ahh, Norm... wasn't talking about you dude. Sorry if I gave that impression. But I'm sorry, it's true that most of the stuff posted is utter and complete crap. Your stuff doesn't fall into that category, but most of it does. FWIW, I don't expect anyone to just take my word for anything I type just because I typed it either. I'm trying to educate here, as do you...

Again, that wasn't directed to you, or in fact any one specific person.

There are vendors who don't know which or their springs are stiffer! There are others that tell you how great their springs are and drop the height and don't up the rate to compensate....

claudermilk

Well, when the time comes & I give you a call, I think we will get along just fine.

I will be watching this thread with interest--already good info to chew on. I'm still getting my brain around the Mustang suspension & the options for it.

UPRSharad

A lot of this is subjective and if you ask ten different people you might get ten different answers. I've tried a lot of different suspension products and rarely are any of them ever bad products... but the suspension does work as a system so you have to choose parts that work well as a system.

I'm running Koni Sports, UPR springs (same specs as FRPP K & Eibach Pro) and the entire UPR Pro Street suspension setup (k-member, control arms, PHB, etc) My car handles very well and the ride quality is totally reasonable for a daily driver.

www.uprproducts.com