Stock Brembo brakes failed while racing
11-23-2014, 06:26 AM
#1
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 220
Stock Brembo brakes failed while racing
For the first time I went with my '11 5.0 (with the Brembo pkg) to the track, it was a DE event from my local PCA (this is done in a local airport). My Strano's adjustable sway bars were set front middle and rear soft. The car behaved very good without the TC. At first I had 35 psi on all my 275/40R19 Michelin Pilot SS, after hot laps we had to let go some psi (it reached about 40 psi hot) down to 39 psi front & 38 psi back, because it began to lose traction, and then after it, it really improved. At the end of the day, I went solo VS a BMW M3 (V8) with a experienced driver with mods in his suspension, he ended his time at .59 secs. and I was behind at .60 secs, after several hot laps behind him, I had to leave the track because my brakes faded severely:doh:.
My instructor recommended the following:
-To set the front bar softer (he did not like the feeling of the steering while testing my car).
-Align my car.
-Flush the brakes
-Change the front brake pads
I also had the opportunity in a long stretch to try the top speed of my car, I reach 145 MPH (like mentioned on several magazines), the car was OK, just felt strong wind noise, and I could see some movement on the hood. After I reached that speed, I did not felt that the limit was because it was set to that top speed by the manufacturer, but instead it was limited by the Mustang's limited aerodynamics.
Guys based on your experience:
-Which front brake pads do you recommend for Street & occasional track time, that will not fade (without too much noise from them)?
-Do you think I should use synthetic brake fluid?
-Any alignment that you could recommend for Street & Track (I have Sam Strano's adjustable sway bars, KONI STRT's shocks, STEEDA sport springs, GT500 shock mounts, 275/40R19 Michelin Super Sport tires mounted on the stock Brembo handling pkg. wheels).
-Which PSI do you recommend for the track?
My instructor recommended the following:
-To set the front bar softer (he did not like the feeling of the steering while testing my car).
-Align my car.
-Flush the brakes
-Change the front brake pads
I also had the opportunity in a long stretch to try the top speed of my car, I reach 145 MPH (like mentioned on several magazines), the car was OK, just felt strong wind noise, and I could see some movement on the hood. After I reached that speed, I did not felt that the limit was because it was set to that top speed by the manufacturer, but instead it was limited by the Mustang's limited aerodynamics.
Guys based on your experience:
-Which front brake pads do you recommend for Street & occasional track time, that will not fade (without too much noise from them)?
-Do you think I should use synthetic brake fluid?
-Any alignment that you could recommend for Street & Track (I have Sam Strano's adjustable sway bars, KONI STRT's shocks, STEEDA sport springs, GT500 shock mounts, 275/40R19 Michelin Super Sport tires mounted on the stock Brembo handling pkg. wheels).
-Which PSI do you recommend for the track?
11-23-2014, 09:40 AM
#2
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
Brake fluid - Motul RBF600.
Pads - some sort of Carbotech XP's. At least as far up as XP10's are still pretty gentle on rotors and don't seem to need too much heat to work at least reasonably well, things I'd consider more important than noise or the amount of dusting.
Get some air to those front brakes with a brake cooling kit.
I think I'd try stiffening the rear bar before softening the front. If nothing else, more roll stiffness lets you get away with using slightly less aggressive camber settings, and ~200 lb/in springs really aren't all that stiff. Do you have the 1" rear bar or the earlier 7/8" one?
You can drive around all day with -1.7° camber if your toe is good, you maintain your tire pressures, and generally drive with some cornering enthusiasm. Maybe even -2°.
I don't offhand know how wide your wheels are . . . but I am curious about the reasoning behind your choice of 275/40-19's rather than 275/35-19's.
Norm
Pads - some sort of Carbotech XP's. At least as far up as XP10's are still pretty gentle on rotors and don't seem to need too much heat to work at least reasonably well, things I'd consider more important than noise or the amount of dusting.
Get some air to those front brakes with a brake cooling kit.
I think I'd try stiffening the rear bar before softening the front. If nothing else, more roll stiffness lets you get away with using slightly less aggressive camber settings, and ~200 lb/in springs really aren't all that stiff. Do you have the 1" rear bar or the earlier 7/8" one?
You can drive around all day with -1.7° camber if your toe is good, you maintain your tire pressures, and generally drive with some cornering enthusiasm. Maybe even -2°.
I don't offhand know how wide your wheels are . . . but I am curious about the reasoning behind your choice of 275/40-19's rather than 275/35-19's.
Norm
11-23-2014, 10:29 AM
#3
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 220
Hi Norm,
Thanks for your great advices!
The rear bar is the newer 1".
I went with 275/40R19, because I have the 3.73 rear gear that it's very fast, somehow to compensate and not having the worthless 1st.gear feeling because of smaller tires combined with a quick rear gear. No regrets from my side.
Thanks for your great advices!
The rear bar is the newer 1".
I went with 275/40R19, because I have the 3.73 rear gear that it's very fast, somehow to compensate and not having the worthless 1st.gear feeling because of smaller tires combined with a quick rear gear. No regrets from my side.
11-23-2014, 05:59 PM
#4
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 220
Brake fluid - Motul RBF600.
Pads - some sort of Carbotech XP's. At least as far up as XP10's are still pretty gentle on rotors and don't seem to need too much heat to work at least reasonably well, things I'd consider more important than noise or the amount of dusting.
Get some air to those front brakes with a brake cooling kit.
I think I'd try stiffening the rear bar before softening the front. If nothing else, more roll stiffness lets you get away with using slightly less aggressive camber settings, and ~200 lb/in springs really aren't all that stiff. Do you have the 1" rear bar or the earlier 7/8" one?
You can drive around all day with -1.7° camber if your toe is good, you maintain your tire pressures, and generally drive with some cornering enthusiasm. Maybe even -2°.
I don't offhand know how wide your wheels are . . . but I am curious about the reasoning behind your choice of 275/40-19's rather than 275/35-19's.
Norm
Pads - some sort of Carbotech XP's. At least as far up as XP10's are still pretty gentle on rotors and don't seem to need too much heat to work at least reasonably well, things I'd consider more important than noise or the amount of dusting.
Get some air to those front brakes with a brake cooling kit.
I think I'd try stiffening the rear bar before softening the front. If nothing else, more roll stiffness lets you get away with using slightly less aggressive camber settings, and ~200 lb/in springs really aren't all that stiff. Do you have the 1" rear bar or the earlier 7/8" one?
You can drive around all day with -1.7° camber if your toe is good, you maintain your tire pressures, and generally drive with some cornering enthusiasm. Maybe even -2°.
I don't offhand know how wide your wheels are . . . but I am curious about the reasoning behind your choice of 275/40-19's rather than 275/35-19's.
Norm
11-28-2014, 10:40 AM
#5
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 509
For your PSI, I would start in the mid 30's and adjust from there. Your tires are going to heat up and increase PSI based on your driving style and how hard you push your car. +/- 1-2 degrees based on how cold or hot the track is. Be mindful of the wear markers on the tires, too.
11-28-2014, 02:55 PM
#6
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
Uh, steering feel and balance are not the same thing. Maybe he meant balance but considering the EPAS on the newer cars and how it "feels" I'd not be shocked if he just didn't like the steering system itself and the bar wouldn't change that.
My question is simply; How was the balance? If it's understeery then sure maybe softening the front bar would be wise. But if you have no camber to speak of you might want to add a little more negative which would also help balance.
In the end it's your car, and what matters most is how it feels to you, and drives for you. The bars are adjustable for a reason, but you should adjust them for the right reasons.
RE: Brakes. Sure you faded the stock brakes, because stock pads aren't meant to be track pads, and they don't dump expensive brake fluid in the car either. Did the pedal get long, or was it fine but the car just didn't stop well? One is fluid fade the other is pad fade.
There are few good dual purpose options for pads, and even those that can do some dual use don't do the track as well as a set of race pads (which you don't want to drive on the street). Front pads are easy to swap, and ideally I'd recommend you consider swapping for track. The more you run them, the fast you will get, and the more brake you will need (more speed). And the last thing I want to find lacking are my brakes. That's a good way to bend metal, or worse.
Dual duty, Ferodo DS2500 all around. If you get more serious the rears will work and we step the fronts up to something like a Hawk HT-10 or DTC-60.
I have all those hanging around because it's a common thing I do.
You can call me too, being a customer means I'm happy to help with things like talking alignments etc.
My question is simply; How was the balance? If it's understeery then sure maybe softening the front bar would be wise. But if you have no camber to speak of you might want to add a little more negative which would also help balance.
In the end it's your car, and what matters most is how it feels to you, and drives for you. The bars are adjustable for a reason, but you should adjust them for the right reasons.RE: Brakes. Sure you faded the stock brakes, because stock pads aren't meant to be track pads, and they don't dump expensive brake fluid in the car either. Did the pedal get long, or was it fine but the car just didn't stop well? One is fluid fade the other is pad fade.
There are few good dual purpose options for pads, and even those that can do some dual use don't do the track as well as a set of race pads (which you don't want to drive on the street). Front pads are easy to swap, and ideally I'd recommend you consider swapping for track. The more you run them, the fast you will get, and the more brake you will need (more speed). And the last thing I want to find lacking are my brakes. That's a good way to bend metal, or worse.
Dual duty, Ferodo DS2500 all around. If you get more serious the rears will work and we step the fronts up to something like a Hawk HT-10 or DTC-60.
I have all those hanging around because it's a common thing I do.
You can call me too, being a customer means I'm happy to help with things like talking alignments etc.
11-29-2014, 08:25 AM
#7
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 220
Uh, steering feel and balance are not the same thing. Maybe he meant balance but considering the EPAS on the newer cars and how it "feels" I'd not be shocked if he just didn't like the steering system itself and the bar wouldn't change that.
My question is simply; How was the balance? If it's understeery then sure maybe softening the front bar would be wise. But if you have no camber to speak of you might want to add a little more negative which would also help balance. In the end it's your car, and what matters most is how it feels to you, and drives for you. The bars are adjustable for a reason, but you should adjust them for the right reasons.
<Well I was kind of surprised with the instructor comments, because the car really felt very balanced with your (adjustable sway bars, KONI's, STEEDA Sport springs), and probably the Michelin SS helped, I did not find any understeer at all, and the back was very controlled, just a little oversteer but it depended more in if I steeped on the gas at the right moment or not (here the instructor's suggestions played also a major role). My front bar was set on the middle hole and the rear one was set soft. It really also helped (following instructor suggestion) of letting go some psi on front and back, so I lowered to minus 2 psi at the front and to minus 1 at the rear, just after it began to skid a little. Before I started racing I was at 35 PSI cold.>
RE: Brakes. Sure you faded the stock brakes, because stock pads aren't meant to be track pads, and they don't dump expensive brake fluid in the car either. Did the pedal get long, or was it fine but the car just didn't stop well? One is fluid fade the other is pad fade.
<pedal went almost to the floor, little braking power, I left the race at that point, after the brakes cooled on my drive back to home, it felt better, on days later I noticed that my brake was soft, I went to FORD for my oil change and inspection routine, and they noticed that my pads had about 3 mm or less left.
Before I started racing that day I was told by the race inspector, that my front brake pads where going to be good just for one DE (half life I believe)>
There are few good dual purpose options for pads, and even those that can do some dual use don't do the track as well as a set of race pads (which you don't want to drive on the street). Front pads are easy to swap, and ideally I'd recommend you consider swapping for track. The more you run them, the fast you will get, and the more brake you will need (more speed). And the last thing I want to find lacking are my brakes. That's a good way to bend metal, or worse.
Dual duty, Ferodo DS2500 all around. If you get more serious the rears will work and we step the fronts up to something like a Hawk HT-10 or DTC-60.
I have all those hanging around because it's a common thing I do.
You can call me too, being a customer means I'm happy to help with things like talking alignments etc.
My question is simply; How was the balance? If it's understeery then sure maybe softening the front bar would be wise. But if you have no camber to speak of you might want to add a little more negative which would also help balance.
In the end it's your car, and what matters most is how it feels to you, and drives for you. The bars are adjustable for a reason, but you should adjust them for the right reasons.<Well I was kind of surprised with the instructor comments, because the car really felt very balanced with your (adjustable sway bars, KONI's, STEEDA Sport springs), and probably the Michelin SS helped, I did not find any understeer at all, and the back was very controlled, just a little oversteer but it depended more in if I steeped on the gas at the right moment or not (here the instructor's suggestions played also a major role). My front bar was set on the middle hole and the rear one was set soft. It really also helped (following instructor suggestion) of letting go some psi on front and back, so I lowered to minus 2 psi at the front and to minus 1 at the rear, just after it began to skid a little. Before I started racing I was at 35 PSI cold.>
RE: Brakes. Sure you faded the stock brakes, because stock pads aren't meant to be track pads, and they don't dump expensive brake fluid in the car either. Did the pedal get long, or was it fine but the car just didn't stop well? One is fluid fade the other is pad fade.
<pedal went almost to the floor, little braking power, I left the race at that point, after the brakes cooled on my drive back to home, it felt better, on days later I noticed that my brake was soft, I went to FORD for my oil change and inspection routine, and they noticed that my pads had about 3 mm or less left.
Before I started racing that day I was told by the race inspector, that my front brake pads where going to be good just for one DE (half life I believe)>
There are few good dual purpose options for pads, and even those that can do some dual use don't do the track as well as a set of race pads (which you don't want to drive on the street). Front pads are easy to swap, and ideally I'd recommend you consider swapping for track. The more you run them, the fast you will get, and the more brake you will need (more speed). And the last thing I want to find lacking are my brakes. That's a good way to bend metal, or worse.
Dual duty, Ferodo DS2500 all around. If you get more serious the rears will work and we step the fronts up to something like a Hawk HT-10 or DTC-60.
I have all those hanging around because it's a common thing I do.
You can call me too, being a customer means I'm happy to help with things like talking alignments etc.
Last edited by M3hunter; 11-29-2014 at 08:37 AM.
11-29-2014, 09:09 AM
#8
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 220
Sam, About your comment of "EPAs", I think you are right because the instructor's own extremely modified Mustang was like a '05 model, so I don't think he had the electric power assisted steering, it was the conventional steering. Maybe that is why he did not liked it, because it did not felt like the one that he has on his car.
If that is the case, it does not matter to me, I like my EPAS, for me it felts natural.
If that is the case, it does not matter to me, I like my EPAS, for me it felts natural.
12-01-2014, 02:00 PM
#9
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
None the less it matters a LOT when we talk about feel that we understand that generic term can mean lots of things to different people. I get "I want my car to handle better" about 100 times a day. I wish it were that simple. For those that just want to push parts out the door it is. But I'm not that guy. I need to know what the hell it means to you, which means I need you to tell me what you *don't* like as much as wanting to make it "better".
I think the same thing was at play here. I'd guess because of how he used the term he didn't like the actual steering feel. But maybe not, maybe he was talking more about the handling balance or how the car itself felt. Sometimes I wish I had a crystal ball.
I think the same thing was at play here. I'd guess because of how he used the term he didn't like the actual steering feel. But maybe not, maybe he was talking more about the handling balance or how the car itself felt. Sometimes I wish I had a crystal ball.
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