Factory Roush vs. Roush Clone--Buyer Beware?
 

I recently purchased a Roush 427R from a private seller. He advertised it as a factory Roush (purchased as stock GT then sent to Roush for factory conversion) and titled it as a Roush 427R on the bill of sale. Turns out it is not in fact a factory Roush (missing badges and serial numbers), but rather he purchased all the top of the line Roush parts and had a mechanic do all the work. So in other words, I purchased a Roush clone under the pretense it was factory. Before I spend a ton of money consulting an attorney, is it false advertising to call a Roush clone a "Roush 427R" without mentioning the word "clone" or "replica"? Is it legally a Roush? To me it should have been advertised as a clone but it wasn't. I wouldn't have paid as much for it if it was advertised as a clone. Do you all think I have a case, or is this a case of "buyer beware"?

I hate to read this - so sorry to hear. Merely adding the Roush parts does not make it a 427R. The VIN would have been registered with Roush, there would be badges in the engine compartment, etc., etc. (as you said). It's not a real one, no matter what the previous owner did to it.

Hate to be an "internet attorney," but my two cents as a non-attorney is, if you bought the car with the understanding it was a legit 427R, and it was listed on the Bill of Sale, then you may have a case for misrepresentation or fraud. I would be very pissed if I were you, and I would hold onto that Bill of Sale listing it as a 427R, since that is your support for a lawsuit.

What it comes down to is, how much you are willing to spend to pursue this? Attorneys fees will add up. What is it worth to you? Talk to an attorney at the very least. The seller may respond to a threatening letter and this whole issue could be resolved in your favor. Just a suggestion.

Again... speaking as a "non-attorney."

Thanks kenthicken. I understand that the replies here will likely all be from non-attorneys, however I appreciate any and all pieces of advice.

A few weeks ago I did email Roush and they could not verify the VIN#. I have this email in my records with Roush stating that "the vehicle was not built as a authentic serialized ROUSH vehicle. Any upgrades were done after market." I regret not doing this research before (hence my question of "buyer beware"), however I bought the car under the false pretense that the seller sent the car to the factory for conversion, and it's listed on the bill of sale as a Roush 427R with no mention of it being a clone or replica. I agree that this is my strongest piece of support for a lawsuit.

As far as how much I'm willing to spend...I really don't know. I've never needed legal help before. I don't want to lose anymore money. The whole reason I'm seeking legal help in the first place is because I feel like I overpaid for a car I was led to believe was authentic. But, if I win I would get some sort of monetary winnings that could go towards attorney fees. I just don't know how much I would win vs. how much I'd owe the attorney. I agree that a threatening letter may do the trick. I've personally sent several emails and letters to the seller, and at this point he is calling my bluff and pretty much daring me to take him to court.

Do you have a copy of the ad they used for the car? That is the only way to really tell....

Yes, I have a copy of the ad as well as issues of magazines the seller entered the car in--all stating that he had the car sent to the Roush factory for an official conversion.

There you go then...conversion is the key word.

A regular Roush is not advertised as a conversion. It's advertised as just a Roush and sold through dealers (when new). The reason is that Roush has the cars factory delivered from the Ford assembly plant directly to their facility to go through the mod process. That's how they are able serialize them and tie the VIN and Serial number together. That's the only "official" way to do it.

After digging around a bit more.... Did the person say they sent it to Roush themselves for the conversion? how exactly did the car get the upgrade/mods done? My understanding is that Roush will not modify someone's private vehicle, only new ones owned by Ford dealerships or Ford, and all of those are serialized.

That may be your case.... they did an aftermarket conversion without any actual input from Roush, the fact the car is not serialized means it's not recognized as a Roush, but rather as a clone car, again Roush doesn't recognize those and they lied about sending it to Roush for a conversion. Contact Roush direct and get the exact details of their process so they can answer your questions.

How much was the car?

I was told that he purchased the car brand new from Len Stoler as a stock GT and it was sent straight from the dealership to Roush for the conversion. I've contacted Len Stoler and they have no record of this transaction other than the initial purchase. I learned that the seller even tried to later sell it back to Len Stoler who was initially interested until they learned the car was not in fact genuine. Roush has no record of my car's VIN#. So it seems that the seller purchased the car new then had a shop do the aftermarket conversion. Roush did confirm that it is not recognized as a Roush. I will take your advise and get some sort of documentation from Roush detailing their process.

It is an automatic 2007 convertible with 31,000 miles at time of purchase for $24,000. I know this is less than what factory Roushes are selling for on average, but still more than what I believe a modified GT with Roush parts is worth...

I'm sorry to hear about this!! Lawyer up for sure!!

Techincally the Roush Mustang is refered to as a 'converstion' since it is done after the VIN related build by Ford. However, you have a great foundation to fight from.

With today's Mustangs, no cars are bought as 'stock' then sent to Roush. They all go right to Roush, then sold as Roush from the dealer. Way back when, Roush did have authorized build locations to help cover builds. My '98 was built by a Roush authorized builder. My '00 was built by them, then sent to the dealer where I bought it.

Let me know if there is anything I can help with from the stand point of what a 'real' Roush is vs a copy/clone/fake.

I believe once Roush does the conversion, they are listed as the "Manufacturer of Record," meaning it is technically no longer a "Ford" but a "Roush."

Can you list the options on the car? Roushcharger, suspension, seats, brakes (big or factory), wheels, gauges, etc., etc.? Reason I am asking is, I just ran the value of your car on NADA Guides (using Baltimore for the ZIP code), and it says that a clean 2007 GT convertible with 31,000 miles is worth $18,825 at retail. If this guy added all the correct 427R mods, especially the blower, then the price you paid is actually not bad with all the mods included.

True, it's not a real 427R, but what it comes down to is, it may be you got the car for a fair price (if not a slight overpay). If you got all the goodies, you may not be far off on the money.

A true 427R is a Mustang with about $20K worth of stuff on it from the factory (mine was $49K new, factory Ford sticker was $28K), so after six years, depreciation and all, $6K for all the same stuff is not bad... if this guy did everything.

Anyway, something to think about. If you do decide to go forward, get all your ducks in a row from Roush, the dealership you mentioned, etc. May want to consider small claims... no attorney needed.

Purchased my 2007 Roush 427R in 2008. It came with both the Ford GT sticker and the Roush invoice of upgrades.
These cars currently sell between $22k-$30k from private Seller's. If you paid $24k that's really not a bad price, especially for a Vert.
I know there was misrepresentation on the Seller's part but attorney fees could be cost prohibitive.
I suggest that if you like the car, keep it. It's a Roush clone and that's ok. I'm sure it's still a fun car that gets a lot of looks and drives great.
These cars are not listed in KBB and resale value is minimal.
My friend has a 2007 427R with 10,000 miles and is selling it for $27k.
The 428Rs and 429Rs sell for slightly higher. The Black Jacks and P51s higher still and the 427R Trak Paks are probably the most sought after because of their handling upgrades for HPDE track use.
If it really bothers you and you're after justice then I personally would gather as much information as possible and threaten to sue the Seller to try to recoup some money or file in Small Claims Court Good Luck.

Thanks for the help. I'm really conflicted as to what to do. On one hand I feel that I have a strong case and should be repaid for being misled, but on the other hand, the car is not a piece of crap--quite the opposite, and I love it...but the seller being SUCH an asshole in his emails to me since I discovered it was a clone makes me want to take him to court that much more. I'm talking about a 55+ man taking advantage of a 24 year old female. Also I do feel I overpaid. I found out from the dealer that the car recently appraised for $18,000.

I know the guy put a lot of money into it, but even if he put $20k worth of stuff on it, it doesn't mean it becomes worth that. The seller doesn't even have ANY paperwork or receipts for this thing. The car was recently appraised for $18k. It has the total bottom package, painted stripes, not decals, mods also made to cold air intake, long tube headers, all caps and dip sticks under the hood have been replaced with new stand out ones, and hood struts on hood as well as hood locks on the outside. Small claims may be an option. I'd at least like to get a free consultation from an attorney, even bite the bullet and pay $500 for a threatening letter.

The attorney fees are what's holding me back here. I do think I'm owed something, but I don't know how that will balance out vs. what I'll end up paying the attorney. I mean if I take this guy to court, I want the $ difference in value, $ for the fraud he committed, $ for my time off work to deal with this and $ to pay my attorney. I don't know if that's how it works though, I've never been involved in a lawsuit before.

A part of my really does want justice too. I've gathered a lot of information that builds my case. I've sent the seller a certified letter and several emails threatening legal action, and he's pretty much calling my bluff and daring me to take him to court. The guy can't put a decent sentence together to save his life so now he has his wife and kids emailing me and writing letters.

If I had a piece of junk car I'd be livid, but the fact that I have a beautiful car eases that a little. I def want to keep it and don't want to void the sale. I've won best of show in 2 out of 2 shows I've entered since I bought the thing a month ago. Small claims may be an option, but isn't fraud criminal? Even the bill of sale says right on it that misrepresentation can lead to fines of hundreds of dollars and possibly jail time. I don't want the guy to go to jail, but this 55 year old man looked me in the eyes and lied to my face then on the bill of sale. He knew what he was doing but as a young female he thought I was too dumb to figure it out or come back and confront him.

If it's attorney fees you fear, talk to one. It's been my expeirence that the loser in court pays the fees all around. Some might ever offer the 'we don't get paid until you get paid' deal.

As for Roush being listed as a manufacturer, only Saleen does that - and they get a new VIN indicating such. A Roush will always be a Ford Mustang (V6/GT etc...) by VIN. It makes us work a little more to get insurance coverage, loan values and resale cost b/c they are not listed in any of the 'books' places like to use.


It would be interesting to see the full list of mods done to the car. I know a lot of people get all touchy about saying a 'real' one is better, but there is a lot of be said about having it built by the guys who do it for a living. Having any old shop toss together performance parts can lead to problems later. It all comes down to the quality of the build.

I am happy to hear you like it. I hope it all works out for you. Make sure to post some pics up!!

Yea, I'll see if I can get a free consultation to see if it's even worth taking on my case. It seems to me that the loser would pay the fees.

I posted some pics in my album. I have some really nice hi-res photos, but they are too big. If I can figure out how to shrink them down I'll post em.

Thanks!!

That is the best way.

If/When you talk to an attorney, the first thing they will want to know is what type of resolution you are looking ($$$). You need to be clear about this.

Personally I'd go after the difference in price between what a regular convertible GT goes for and what the Roush goes for (about 6 grand + attorney fees + your time and any lost wages). The reasoning is simple.

As a stand alone, the mods are not worth it to you. They were only worth it to you if the car was indeed a Roush, which it is not. You are not/were not willing to pay 6K extra for options that are not worth that much as they stand without the Roush serialized name to stand behind. At the very worst the court reduces that amount to half (3K) and gives you compensation for lost wages and attorney fees.

Keep a record of EVERY bit of communication you have with the seller. ALL of it. Any phone calls, take notes and record the date and time, etc. If the guy is as big of an idiot as he sounds, he will hang himself if he hasn't already.

I totally agree with all you've said. And in regards to communication, I have every bit of it saved. I have refrained from speaking to him on the phone so that I have everything documented through email. He can say whatever he wants on the phone but I can't exactly record him.

I posted his same question on a legal forum and many of the people responding don't believe I have a case. They think I took advantage of the seller by paying below market value for what I believed to be an authentic Roush. They think I feel that it was ok for me to take advantage of him but when I found out he took advantage of me I'm claiming fraud.

And they also said I neglected to do "due diligence" and research an authentic Roush before I signed the check. My question is just if all that outweighs the fact that he lied on the bill of sale and sold me a car under false pretenses. It seems to me that what they're saying is that the way the law works, so long as the buyers don't figure out the fraud through research before they sign the check, it's ok to lie and con people because they should have figured it out before. I'm more conflicted than ever as to if I should pursue this or not...

You can't take advantage of a seller if they are asking a low price. That's a crazy concept.

Check out both FNSweet.com and RoushForums.com (FNSweet might be more helpful.) You might be able to snag a real legal angle from a Roush owner/attorney or run across someone else with the same problem. Also check out Roush Addicts on Facebook. It's another large group of owners that might be able to help you out on the legal end.

One of the reasons some people buy Roush Mustangs is that it's a tuned car. All of the Research and Development has been done, then tested on mules to fine tune the performance of each part. What you have is a well balanced, badged and serialized high performance car.
This was misrepresented to you. I agree that you should come up with an amount of money to sue in your lawsuit case.
One of the ways to establish the value of your car is to depreciate the cost of your year/model GT and then depreciate the cost of the upgrades.
Another route to proceed is to file in small claims court case. The fear, hassle of a lawsuit may scare the Seller into a quick settlement. Once the defendant is served, perhaps a settlement can be negotiated without ever going to court.

You'd think!! But now I wonder if a judge will see it that way. I paid the guy what he was asking for it. I didn't even low-ball him. Besides, he seemed desperate to get rid of it because he needed the $$ for medical reasons.

I tried registering on FNSweet.com but i could not for the life of me figure out how to create a post. I was short on time so just gave it up. I'll def check out the others though. I want to get as much info as possible before moving forward.

Great points! I think small claims may be the way to go. I can only hope that being served with papers would be enough to make him wake up and settle this between ourselves.

You must have got a really good (below market) price on it to blind you so much that you failed to do your DD before handing over the money. If it is done well, and you did get it for a good price, you could just enjoy it and drive it and chalk it up as one of life's little lessons.

I came across this forum and your posts on freeadvice.com. I thought it wouldn't hurt to chime in.

Roush doesn't have NADA support. NADA (National Automobile Dealers Association) can act as an archive to help set price ranges for new and used vehicles. Ford Factory Mustangs (V6, GT, 5.0, Boss, GT500) and even a Mustang tuning company (Saleen) are included. Other Mustang tuners (Ronaele, Foose, Roush, etc.) are not included. Banks or your state's DMV won't acknowledge a Roush as anything other than a GT.

You made many comments on how you are afraid of losing the alleged "value" of your car 25 years down the line because your clone wouldn't be worth as much as a true Roush. In either case your car isn't going to retain what you feel it should in terms of monetary value. A Roush car is not a collector car, but they do a damned good job with all of their badges, serial numbers, fireworks, laser light shows, etc. to make you feel that it is.

Roush originally made the first consumer Roush Mustang back in 1995. The car was expensive back then. I've seen the very 1st Roush ever made go for less than $10k on eBay a few months back. Its been nearly 20 years since that car was made now. Unfortunately, nobody cares about a tuner car without NADA support. Roush vehicles since then are victim to the same depreciation.

What does this mean for you? The car that originally had an MSRP from Roush for $50-$60k has little to no comparison for pricing when it comes time to sell. Besides the punch in the gut you get from driving a Roush vehicle off the lot in lost "value" you get an additional kick to the groin. It doesn't matter if it is new or used. I know quite a few guys that have owned Stage 3s, 427Rs, or other Roush cars and have lost 50%+ in "investment" within the first year or two. That is severe depreciation. Typically, for a Roush car you see GT trade in value plus 10-20% and that's about it regardless of if its the real deal or a clone. Roush dealers usually give you a better price however.

Buying a new Roush means losing your shirt in terms of "value." Buying a used Roush means losing less money. I've heard the same story over and over and over and over again from guys that either bought their car new or used. No one knows how to price these things, so you are the one that loses. If you buy a Roush and ever hope to recover most or all of what you have into it you better pray that the potential buyer really really loves your car.

You are going to have a hell of a time proving to a court that you lost out on a certain dollar amount, since the price tag for a used Roush is all across the board. It is not admissible in court to use an auction or a handful of private sale prices of other Roush cars to compare the alleged lost "value" versus what you actually paid. You would need an NADA value, which you can't get. You could try to get a dealership appraisal, yet you are at their mercy in this case. Sadly, you have very little to go on to prove "value." Hopefully, if you do go to court the judge won't be apathetic, but proving you were duped is going to be hard when you didn't do your homework proving the car was what seller said it was.

Per your freeadvice.com conversation you mentioned how a regular GT would be a little below $20k in price versus the one you bought. I can tell you that you couldn't take a regular GT for the price you quoted it at and build the Roush clone you did buy for what you paid. That tid-bit is the good news. The silver lining is you bought the same car you wanted to get and didn't pay the $5k or so to get the "real deal" that, in another couple of years, won't hold its value anyway.

I know this isn't the greatest of news, but as a Roush owner this is the reality you've got. You buy the car because you like it and that's about it. How do I know? Well, I too bought a used Roush (that was real) and did my homework to find this reality. Thankfully, I paid a low price on it, so the depreciation hit won't hit me as hard. I bought the car because I like it.

If you can get some money back great, but I think this is a whoops that you'll have to learn from. At the end of the day if your 427 clone is a perfect clone sans "official" Roush treatment (that its registered on their excel spreadsheet) with all of the original parts a real 427R was supposed to have you got a killer deal what you did buy. It really sucks that the guy lied to you. I'm not justifying what the douche did, but at least you can salvage something out of this. Hopefully, you can still enjoy what you have.

Actually a Roush car is well known in the industry and is a collector car. The rarest early gen cars trade hands for $20K or more. The S3 (blue one I assume you are refering to didn't sell for only $10K last time Miller listed it on ebay several months ago). In fact that same car was listed for $40K by Stage 3 Motorsports in CA several years ago when I was looking at buying an early Roush to go with my 2000 S1. I ended up with my '98 instead. Early Roush SN95 cars still sell for high teens or low twenty figures for S2 or S2 plus cars. That's triple (or more) what other basic GT cars of the same year are selling for. NADA doesn't mean crap in today's world of internet. No book does. Current market value is easy to find and keep track of. That book and others like it are relics that need to be tossed out.


You sound more like an upset owner rather than someone familiar with Roush history and what the cars are worth.

How do I sound like an upset owner? If you read what I wrote you'd understand that I am anything but that. I paid less than a 1/3 of the original MSRP under two years ago on an RS3 with less than 15,000 miles. I'm thrilled friend. I bought the car I wanted for beans. The original two guys before me didn't fare well obviously.

My purchase may be on the low end of the spectrum, but what you are describing is on the completely opposite end. You can charge any sum for any item and if you find someone to buy it does that necessarily dictate value for all items in the same group? No, it doesn't. I'd have no problem taking your word on the prices you are saying in the area you are from. California is not the rest of the US, and outliers exist in every price pool. If they overpay for one car in one area versus many cheap examples everywhere else the adage "a fool and his gold are soon parted" would apply.

You cannot go to court give the judge a handful of over inflated examples and base your argument of value on that alone. This is the problem the OP has, which is vast inconsistency to prove value to rectify the difference between what she thought she was buying versus what she actually received. She needs a hard price provided by NADA or many appraisals to convince the court that there is a stark difference between what was sold versus what she thought she was being sold.

The OP will find many many more Roush owners on forums complaining about how the value of their car fell like a stone and they lost their shirts versus those that broke even or made money. That Roush you referenced barely sold for 1/4 of that 40K asking price. The SN95 and New Edge Roush cars can sell for the mid teens, but that is about it. Why do tell the SVT Cobras and GT500s sell for more today versus their Roush counterparts when the Roush cars had a higher original MSRP? No consistent Roush pricing among auto traders and sellers. No NADA.

Another thing, NADA values are what dealerships base their prices on. NADA prices aren't a book. It isn't a group dictating prices to dealerships or sellers. It is sellers reporting prices they are charging versus what they actually sell their vehicles for to one another through a computer database. I'd say that is quite relevant in today's "world of the internet" as you put it.

Actually, you can go to court with a stack of printed off adds to determine market value of a rare Mustang. I've done it. I proved my point and won the case. All of the books/guidelines etc didn't hold any merit because none delt with the specific variation of the car. It is also why I have my rare cars appraised and as much paper work and as many photographs as possible to document them.

Market price for collectable cars isn't localized to states.... or even countries. Maybe it used to be, but not any more. People will travel for the right car, or have it shipped.

As for charging party determining value - the sellers control the price of Roush cars. If everyone starts asking less and less, the value drops. It's the owner's fault, nobody elses (it's a repeated topic on FNSweet). If nobody sells cheap, the people who want them will pay the premium for them. Owners of a rare object determine price, not the buyers.

In the last several years of watching, I have yet to see a 96-98 Roush sell for less than about double the average 96-98 Cobra in similar condition.

get a lawyer on a contingency basis. You don't pay if they don't win. I'm sure there is a good attorney where you are that will jump all over this.

Warm Regards,

John

I have read many of the posts here and I think some who have "number plated" factory Roush cars are misunderstanding the issues involved in buying a Roush because they are understandably proud of their "number plated" cars. The real issue is that cars should never be misrepresented!

My understanding is as follows:

1. There are Roush cars with a "number plate" that are a modified Mustang sent from Ford to Roush and then retailed by Ford as a Roush. If you will only happy with the bragging rights of a Roush with a "number Plate" coming from the Roush factory, then do the research and make sure that's what you are getting!

2. There are Roush Mustangs that have been modifed with genuine Roush parts by an authorized Roush dealer and mechanic under Roush specifications that will not have a "number plate" and may have various combinations of Roush parts. If you are mainly interested in the performance and/or maybe look of a Roush you may be very happy with a Roush Mustang modified after the original sale by an authorized Roush Dealer and Mechanic according to Roush specifications and warrantees! Also some Ford Dealers have sent new Mustangs to Roush authorized dealers to have these modifications done prior to the original sale on the lot!

3. There are Mustangs that may only have decals, or have had non authorized or guaranteed work done by owners themselves! If you buy a Mustang that has not been assembled by a Roush authorized dealer and mechanic using Roush specifications and having a Roush warrantee you buy such a car at your own great risk! [B]

In my opinion, whether, or not you call a Mustang a Roush is determined by whether Roush controlled and warranteed the modification of the car, rather than when the modification was done. If Roush didn't not want these cars called a Roush they would not have authorized dealers installing Roush mechanical parts with a Roush guarrantee! I bought my Mustang and had it sent to a Roush authorized dealer. Others can decide if they think it is a Roush, or not, but it had a Roush guarrantee and it runs like a scalded cat! To each his own, but we all agree, "Just don't misrepresent the car!"


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For clarification on #2 -

Roush authorized dealer/shop builds in the earlier generations (95-04) did happen, and those cars were all serialized (in the door jam). In reality, most of the cars prior to 2001 were done by outsourced authorized builders. (IE: My 1998 Roush was built by Braco Racing in Feb of '98. My 2000 Roush was built at Roush Racing, in Mansfield, TX.)

Serial numbers where hit and miss until 1999. But simply put for anything 1999 or newer, if the car is not serialized, it's not a 'real' Roush. It's a copy/clone/owner build....what ever term someone preferes.

That being said, you can have a Roush authorized shop/dealer install Roush parts with the warrenty, but that doesn't make it a Roush car. It makes is a car with Roush parts.

I don't mean to offend or start a big argument, but I see it a different way. First of all, "buyer beware" so you know what you are buying and don't get cheated! There is no excuse for misrepresenting a Mustang being sold. period!

If I had spent a lot of money on a Shelby, Roush, etc. with a serial number I might feel the same way, but I disagree. Some people are more about pedigrees than actual performance, or quality, etc. To me the only issue is whether, or not a car is described accurately.

Example: The car below has been examined by NCRS judges and passed as an original '61 Fuelly Corvette. It is not original, but no expert has ever been able to find anything not original! My point is.... what is the point? Unless you are misrepresenting a car in a sale and cheating someone....what is the point? A pedigree rather than anything to do with the actual car. I've seen many '61 fuelly Corvettes that were worn out rags unsafe to drive but still worth twice as much as this car because it could be documented they came from the factory as a '61 fuelly! Not my way of thinking, but everyone gets to put a value on things in their own way. http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps460f1ab6.png

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An original, or one of my disgusting fakes? LOL!

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To conclude, from my point of view if Shelby, Roush, or Saleen provides a warrantee for building a Mustang by an authorized dealer then it is a Shelby, Roush, or Saleen car. It simply should not be misrepresented. In the case of some buyers, they simply do not want all the modifications that come with a "one size fits all" factory Roush or Shelby on a Ford Sales Lot, such as the suspension modifications. Many will not agree, of course, but the bottom line to me is if Roush sets up authorized Roush Dealers and mechanics to do builds with Roush warrantees on those builds than that car is a Roush! Both Mustangs of type #1, and type #2 should be respected for what they are! It appears Roush recognizes them both as Roush's! Just enjoy!

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The defining factor that makes it a "real" Roush is the serial number given to it by Roush when it was built. Roush will tell you the same thing - their cars have serial numbers for a reason. They also see the other cars as Mustangs with Roush parts. You can make a REALLY good copy of a Roush - but you can't fake a serial number. (Ok, you can, but you see what I'm saying.)

I agree with what you are saying in terms of my #1 type Mustang that has been converted at the Roush factory to a "number plated car". I just maintain that Roush allows the buyer to create a car with Roush performance without some of the body modifications, etc. that I as a customer did not want. I like the look of the original Mustang without body changes! I don't think it serves any real benefit for owners of Roush Factory Mustangs to make a big issue and denying that Mustangs converted by authorized Roush dealers under Roush specifications cannot be considered a Roush Mustang. I am obviously not talking about simply a Mustang with a Roush decal. (Again, no one should misrepresent a Mustang without a registered number plate as a Roush Factory car.) If my car is a Roush Clone than Roush was involved in making my clone as it provided me with a Roush warrantee good at Ford or a Roush authorized dealer for all the work and modifications done by the Roush authorized dealer.

I'm involved with a Corvette Restoration business and we see "original" early Corvettes that are dangerous junkers sitting next to concours quality clones worth a very small percentage of the "original" junker. Due to GM's lack of keeping old production records the only "real" difference that can be found is original sales paperwork which is often unavailable. Also many "real" cars are called clones/fakes because GM replaced a engine block or other numbered part before it even left the factory. We have found Corvettes that can be document as having the original block from the factory, but the numbers do not correspond correctly as GM was not concerned about matching numbers when pulling and replacing an engine.

Bottom line and my last comment! The value of a Roush factory number plated car does not have to be "defended" by demeaning or denying the obvious value of a Mustang built by an authorized Roush Dealer following Roush specifications and with a Roush guarrantee.

When I go to a car show I never say anything negative about another person's car unless I'm asked by an owner in terms of how to improve it! Everyone's car is their pride and joy, whether it has a "serial number plate" or not and it probably should be evaluated based on its quality. To each his own.... as long as you don't try to cheat someone my misrepresenting a car in a sale!

If what your saying about addding parts from Roush making it a Roush, then along that same line, adding SVT Cobra wheels bought from my local SVT authorized Ford dealer now makes the car an SVT Cobra. It doesn't. It's nothing more than an owner modified car with SVT parts.

1: Most attorneys offer a free 1 hr consultation ( basically, they want to evaluate weather they have a strong case or not, before proceeding).
2: A lot of merit regarding fraud is how the sale was worded AND advertised, if it clearly insinuated the car in question was indeed a Roush built and serialized car, then that becomes misleading and fraudulent advertising.

3: By default, if your lawyer wins the case, he automatically asks for legal fees to be awarded, and usually that request is granted by the presiding judge, HOWEVER you will have to secure the attorney through your own retainer...( usually and customary, first 8 hrs x hourly rate of attorney; say, $150.00/hr x 8, $1,200)

4:Locate and discuss your case with an attorney that specializes in this particular field.

5: Last but not least, there is no guarantee you would recover your money, if the seller is unemployed or in financial straits, so the more pertinent info you have to offer your attorney regarding the seller, the better your chances....find out if he owns real estate ect... best of all, good luck to you.

As you know that's not what I'm saying, nor did you give a comparable example.

Taking your Mustang to Shelby in Las Vegas and spending 20K on a build would be a better example! If you go that costly approach Shelby considers the car a Shelby even if it wasn't built that way originally. The basic difference is that Shelby sells you an expensive number plate in the process! Roush has a better approach that lets the customer decide what he wants as a final product. When I was at Shelby, it was one size fits all at about 11K or 21K, and the lesser price was all cosmetic. I wanted all performance and leave the basic Mustang body alone because I prefer the stock looks.

Anyhow, we both made our point.

I gather the sale being discussed was a private party sale??? If it was a sale by a dealer DMV could be helpful. I was cheated by Chrysler years ago in selling me a brand new diesel truck that had be in an accident. Long story.... short, they treated me like trash until a lawyer that specialized in dealing with the auto companies told me, "You don't need me, just start a complaint against their license to sell cars with DMV!" I got three other dealers to put in writing that the "new" truck had major body and paint repairs done without disclosure, contrary to the law. Chrysler changed their tune and gave me a brand new, loaded truck! My mistake was in settling! I should have gone after "punitive" damages which might have been massive, but I didn't think that way at the time! I was trying to be reasonable! Duh!

Mr. D, I can't help but think you are a troll. Most of your 200+ posts are you telling someone how you made a better car based on parts with no genuine prominence.

I applaud you in the fact that you have owned some nice cars.

If you want a driver, there is no shame in having a clone, but it is very arrogant to claim over and over as you do that your 'clone' was as good or better than an original.

It never will be.

It will never have the value.

While it may have the same, or better usage or availability, a clone is a clone.

I am not attacking you, I am not attacking your cars.

I am just asking that you acknowledge that most of the public will never accept a clone in the manner that they will accept an original. That is not to mean we won't appreciate it, or maybe even pay a slight premium for such, but at the end of the day, a clone is not in the same category as an original.

Actually, I gave the perfect example. You said you wanted a part here and a part there of your chosing from an authorized Roush dealer and then calling the outcome a real Roush car. Doing it with Roush parts or SVT parts...it doesn't instantly make it one of those. It's simply a car with parts from a performance group.


Even if you build an exact replica of a Roush Mustang using authentic parts from Roush, put it next to a serialized car and the REAL car (with a serial number) has a higher value.

In my 10+ years of Roush ownership, I've only known one car to be made outside of Roush that was granted a serial number by Roush (It's a 2002 Stage 2 replica #5626). It used every Stage 2 part right from Roush, and it is one of the best looking Mustangs I've ever seen. That owner will be the first to tell you it's not a real Roush, but instead a Roush clone/replica.

Murgatory,

I've noticed with some, the definition they use for a "Troll" = is a person that will not bend to their opinion and dares to have one of their own! Calling me a troll doesn't strengthen your argument! It's called an "Ad Hominem" attack! It's a comment most often made by people who simply don't like to hear opinions other than their own! You disagree with me and jumped into the conversation, but I would not call you a troll!

You said, "Even if you build an exact replica of a Roush Mustang using authentic parts from Roush, put it next to a serialized car and the REAL car (with a serial number) has a higher value."

I agree 100%!!!!....But that's not my point!

The point you and "Lil Roush" are missing, or ignoring, is that I never said that a car built by a authorized Roush dealer is the same, or worth the same as a Roush with a serial # plate! My point is that there should be a clear distinction made between a "clone" that is a fake having a couple of Roush decals and a Mustang with $10 to 20K modifications done by an authorized dealer, under Roush specfications, with a Roush warrantee. They can be done either for a Ford Dealership or an new owner. My original post tried to clarify that clear difference and was clear in stating that was not a factory made Roush, but it is still a Roush. The Ford dealer where I bought my Mustang had both Factory made, serial numbered Roush and Saleen cars and also Mustangs modified after they hit the dealership. Some were sent out to a local Roush authorized dealer and some were down by this authorized Roush Ford Dealership. They were modified under Roush specifications with a Roush guarantee related to the engine and drive train. I called Roush and they verified that such cars were considered Roush Mustangs simply constructed by an outside authorized source and were guaranteed by Roush. Obviously these Ford Dealers would be sued by Roush if they were doing something against their agreement with Roush. Ford also offered a "Ford extended warrantee" that covered the Roush modifications.

Now to be CLEAR, I am not saying that a car built by an authorized dealer is the same, or worth the same as a serial numbered factory made Roush.... but it should not be classed or valued in the same as a Mustang were Joe Blow adds a couple of decals in his garage and passes it off as a Roush! Those who own a serial numbered Roush car should not be so insecure about their car's evaluation as to need to devalue cars built by authorized Ford Dealers or independent authorized Roush dealers by saying they are not a Roush, but a clone!

People have the right to different values and opinions, BUT BELIEVE IT OR NOT there are wierdos like me that would value a supercharged Roush (at 475 to 575 H.P.) with an upgraded suspension, exhaust & brakes, etc, with far superior performance to a factory serial numbered car with simply Roush cosmetic body parts. That's why we got a Roush modifed by a Roush authorized dealer! We didn't want the Roush at the local dealer's lot, but didn't expect people to say, "That's not a Roush after we spent all that money with a Roush authorized dealer! You've hurt my feelings by calling my car a clone and I expect an apology and flowers! LOL! If you'll notice it makes no attempt to look like a Factory serial numbered Roush!

I think both types of cars should be appreciated for what they are and the word "clone" should be reserved for cars that are fake copy having nothing to do with the Roush factory or authorized dealers and Roush warrantees.

I deal with the same issue with restoring C-1 Corvettes and have people consider a early Corvette a clone because a Chevy dealer put on a piece of equipment that the car did not leave the factory with, or in a few cases we've found the block serial numbers and or transmission numbers in documented one owner cars were earlier than the build date. What if you take an original car and replace 80% of the fiberglass after an accident! Clone? We make a number of brake master cylinder safety modifications and steering modifications that are impossible to find, but make the steering much nicer because we want our customers to actually live while driving the cars! Does that make these cars clones! A friend bought a 62 Corvette with two four barrels! At the dealership another buyer hated his fuel injection unit because if idle problems! The dealer switched the 2 four barrels for the Injection & distributor and both customers were thrilled! Are both cars clones because they were built that way at the factory, although it made no real world difference! I'll leave that to you!

Again, as long as a car is described accurately, why get stuck on issues of whether it can be called a Roush or Shelby! Stop by Shelby in Las Vegas and spend $25K on your Mustang and then tell me "the only thing that makes it a Shelby is the serial number they sell you (at a high cost) with the modifications! I suppose if they put the serial number plate on with Velcrox.... then you can take it on and off and say, "Shelby... Clone! Shelby... Clone! Shelby... Clone", as you take off the serial number plate and put it back on again!

If a guy has a stock Mustang with Roush decals I agree it should not be considered a Roush anymore than a Ford Pinto with a snake on the grill is is a Cobra! LOL! I truly don't want to upset those owning "serial numbered cars" of any kind, but also let's not say a car built by a Roush authorized dealer under Roush specifications with a Roush warrantee is not a Roush! It just alienates people with by degrading nice cars! If you go to a Mustang Club meet or cruise night and go down the row of Mustangs saying "This is a Roush.... This is a Clone, Roush..... clone!" I suggest you leave your engine running on your number plated Roush! LOL! When you get to the stock Mustang with a Roush decal on it..... we all agree it is not a Roush! I doubt you agree, so let's just agree to disagree and enjoy our cars!

I'm done! Let's all get along, and appreciate any honestly describe cars!

Note: Beware of early Corvettes, because then can be built in any configuration and it cannot be discovered "IF" the builder knows his stuff! In the 70's a lot of high H.P. parts were taken off and replaced with easier to live with 4 Barrel carburetors!

http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w...ineseTruck.jpg

This is my one cylinder, number match diesel, with no electrical, water pump, fuel pump, etc. It is not a clone!

Peace be with you!

Just wanted to touch a couple points. It's the term REAL that is still the issue. Calling it a Roush means it is a real Roush car built by Roush with a serial number.

In a previous post where you listed the 3 types of Roushs, as well as the underlined section here, you claim that a REAL Roush can be built at a dealer with misc Roush parts. My point is this is not true anymore. It is still a Mustang with Roush parts. A clone is a clone is a clone. IT IS NOT A REAL ROUSH WITHOUT THE SERIAL NUMBER.

I highly doubt anyone authorized to make that claim from Roush told you that they are 'real' when an authorized dealer installed the parts. Clearly anyone tied to Roush is happy to sell parts and spread the level of performance from the company. They make great stuff.

I'm not insecure at all about my cars, nor am I belittling anyone else's. I didn't say my cars are better or anything along those lines. I specifically stating what a REAL Roush is vs a dealer build/clone. I'm not alienating anyone with a clone. But if you want to say your car is a Roush, go get a Roush.

I think what is happening is you feel I'm belittling your car. I'm not. It's a nice car. I like it. But it's not a Roush. It's a GT with a Roush blower and graphic on the window.

I'm not the only one who has explained the difference between a Roush, a dealer build/clone and a car with Roush parts added before.

https://mustangforums.com/forum/sale...sh-clones.html

https://mustangforums.com/forum/sale...ns-rousch.html