1995 Mustang GT- INTERMITTENT Crank, No Start
11-18-2017, 10:54 AM
#1
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1995 Mustang GT- INTERMITTENT Crank, No Start
1995 Mustang GT, 177,000 miles
Hi guys, so my car has developed a tendency to not start. Battery is fairly new, and passes a load test with flying colors. Starter cranks the engine over just fine too.
Over the past few months, I've been noticing some occasional extended crank times before it finally fires up, sometimes as long as 10-15 seconds. But the other day it flat-out refused to start, so the failure should be easier to find by now. Alas, I'm still having trouble nailing it down.
I have the Ford service manual for this car, but not the Powertrain Control/Emissions Diagnosis volume. So I've been looking through that good ol' Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist, and I'm thinking that the time may have come for a new stator/pickup coil/PIP sensor like I hear so many other owners having failures with.
One of the checklist items that was pointing me in that direction was to remove the SPOUT connector which "will sometimes let the engine start", and sure enough, it did. I don't know if that was just a coincidence though; maybe it just needed another couple seconds of cranking to finally start? Anyway, while it was running I used that opportunity to move the car inside the garage, and now it fires up every time I try it, even with the SPOUT connector put back in place.
I'd really rather not pull the car back out of the garage until I've fixed the problem. But I seem to have landed in the intermittently good spot, and everything I look at tests good. Do I have enough information to condemn the stator/coil/PIP as the culprit?
Hi guys, so my car has developed a tendency to not start. Battery is fairly new, and passes a load test with flying colors. Starter cranks the engine over just fine too.
Over the past few months, I've been noticing some occasional extended crank times before it finally fires up, sometimes as long as 10-15 seconds. But the other day it flat-out refused to start, so the failure should be easier to find by now. Alas, I'm still having trouble nailing it down.
I have the Ford service manual for this car, but not the Powertrain Control/Emissions Diagnosis volume. So I've been looking through that good ol' Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist, and I'm thinking that the time may have come for a new stator/pickup coil/PIP sensor like I hear so many other owners having failures with.
One of the checklist items that was pointing me in that direction was to remove the SPOUT connector which "will sometimes let the engine start", and sure enough, it did. I don't know if that was just a coincidence though; maybe it just needed another couple seconds of cranking to finally start? Anyway, while it was running I used that opportunity to move the car inside the garage, and now it fires up every time I try it, even with the SPOUT connector put back in place.
I'd really rather not pull the car back out of the garage until I've fixed the problem. But I seem to have landed in the intermittently good spot, and everything I look at tests good. Do I have enough information to condemn the stator/coil/PIP as the culprit?
Last edited by Urambo Tauro; 11-18-2017 at 03:37 PM.
11-18-2017, 04:46 PM
#2
Yeah the spout plug trick is a pretty good indicator for a defective pip sensor.When the pip sensor pulse is lost,spark and injector pulse disappear.So the next time the no start condition occurs,remove the breather tube from the small port on top of the throttle body,spray starting fluid or carb cleaner into the tb port,reinstall the breather tube then try to start the car.
(Results)
If the car starts and runs for a few seconds then dies,a No Fuel issue is present.Possibly due to no injector pulse.
If the car doesnt start at all,youve got a No Spark issue present.Possibly due to a defective pip sensor.Out of all the possible components that can cause a no spark issue (i.e.- coil,distributor cap,tfi,ecm & pip sensor) the pip sensor is the only one that'll cause no injector pulse too.
The following test will verify if you're losing injector pulse. Do the test while the no start issue is present
1) Disconnect the harness plug from any injector.
2) Use a couple paperclips and insert one into each harness plug terminal.
3) Attach the clip of a test light to either paperclip and attach the test light probe to the remaining paperclip.
4) Get a assistant to turn the key to start so the engine will turn over.
5) Is the test light flashing??
If no,injector pulse is not present.
If yes,injector pulse is present.
(Results)
If the car starts and runs for a few seconds then dies,a No Fuel issue is present.Possibly due to no injector pulse.
If the car doesnt start at all,youve got a No Spark issue present.Possibly due to a defective pip sensor.Out of all the possible components that can cause a no spark issue (i.e.- coil,distributor cap,tfi,ecm & pip sensor) the pip sensor is the only one that'll cause no injector pulse too.
The following test will verify if you're losing injector pulse. Do the test while the no start issue is present
1) Disconnect the harness plug from any injector.
2) Use a couple paperclips and insert one into each harness plug terminal.
3) Attach the clip of a test light to either paperclip and attach the test light probe to the remaining paperclip.
4) Get a assistant to turn the key to start so the engine will turn over.
5) Is the test light flashing??
If no,injector pulse is not present.
If yes,injector pulse is present.
Last edited by wbrockstar; 11-18-2017 at 11:04 PM.
11-19-2017, 02:51 PM
#3
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I used a noid light to verify injector pulse. I've got fuel, I've got spark, and the engine runs every time I try to start it now. I hate intermittent faults... I need specs to find excessive resistance or maybe voltage drop somewhere.
I managed to find PIP voltage specs on another forum, but my PIP passed those tests... Then through some further googling, I stumbled upon an issue of Wells CounterPoint investigating this very problem (part I & part II). While the testing procedures that I found earlier called for 3-6 volts from the PIP to the ICM and PCM, Wells claimed otherwise:
So I backprobed the distributor connector and found 6.0 volts coming from each of the PIP circuits with the engine running. Between this and your vote of confidence, I think I'll go ahead and replace the whole dizzy and save myself the hassle of disassembling it.
Now I'm usually a Motorcraft or bust kind of guy for parts like this, but it looks like they're not available anymore. I'm looking at Richporter right now... how do they rank among the aftermarket? Price-wise, they're on the low end, and that makes me a little suspicious. FWIW, the part number matches Spectra "Premium", which has a steel gear and a lifetime warranty.
I managed to find PIP voltage specs on another forum, but my PIP passed those tests... Then through some further googling, I stumbled upon an issue of Wells CounterPoint investigating this very problem (part I & part II). While the testing procedures that I found earlier called for 3-6 volts from the PIP to the ICM and PCM, Wells claimed otherwise:
The spec you won’t find in any service manual is the threshold voltage the ICM and PCM must see before each will recognize the PIP signal. We used a signal generator to simulate the PIP signal, then adjusted the output voltage to find out how much was required before the ICM and PCM would recognize the signal. It turns out it’s two different values. The PCM needed to see a PIP square wave with a peak amplitude of 6.5 volts or more, while the ICM only needed 5.75 volts to recognize the signal.
Now I'm usually a Motorcraft or bust kind of guy for parts like this, but it looks like they're not available anymore. I'm looking at Richporter right now... how do they rank among the aftermarket? Price-wise, they're on the low end, and that makes me a little suspicious. FWIW, the part number matches Spectra "Premium", which has a steel gear and a lifetime warranty.
Last edited by Urambo Tauro; 11-19-2017 at 02:57 PM.
11-23-2017, 12:15 AM
#5
Quality/longevity is probably gonna be hit or miss with parts store brand distributors,so Im not sure what kind of advice to give you towards that.Ive heard mostly good reviews on Summit Racing's brand distributor, but its up there in price($170)between a parts store replacement and MSD.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850410
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850410
11-23-2017, 09:37 AM
#6
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See, the thing that bugs me about those is, I'm not sure how much of that price is due to the fancy-schmancy billet housing. I'm not much into underhood dress-up parts, and could care less about the shine.
I'm just going to go ahead and give the Richporter one a shot, and hold on to my original one as a spare. Some day I'd like to get my hands on a shop press, and when that happens, I'll go ahead and rebuild my old dizzy with a Motorcraft stator/PIP.
I'm just going to go ahead and give the Richporter one a shot, and hold on to my original one as a spare. Some day I'd like to get my hands on a shop press, and when that happens, I'll go ahead and rebuild my old dizzy with a Motorcraft stator/PIP.
11-24-2017, 05:45 PM
#7
See, the thing that bugs me about those is, I'm not sure how much of that price is due to the fancy-schmancy billet housing. I'm not much into underhood dress-up parts, and could care less about the shine.
I'm just going to go ahead and give the Richporter one a shot, and hold on to my original one as a spare. Some day I'd like to get my hands on a shop press, and when that happens, I'll go ahead and rebuild my old dizzy with a Motorcraft stator/PIP.
I'm just going to go ahead and give the Richporter one a shot, and hold on to my original one as a spare. Some day I'd like to get my hands on a shop press, and when that happens, I'll go ahead and rebuild my old dizzy with a Motorcraft stator/PIP.
If I could source a supplier for the distributor shaft bearing,I would go ahead and do the exact same thing to mine with Motorcraft components.I wonder if the bearing is pretty much the only hard part that can go bad or is there a possibility the shaft can also develop a wear pattern,requiring replacement?? It seems like the bearing would take all the abuse,leaving the shaft untouched?? Ive noticed the distributor shaft can develop a bit of up and down play in it with age. Is this area of concern bearing related too?? Disassembly,cleanup,bearing r/r,MC pip sensor,new roll pins,reassembly,Finished. . .
11-25-2017, 10:31 AM
#8
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Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. While I was researching, I even ran across a post where someone had a squeaky distributor at 210k miles.
Because I don't have a press right now, I won't be rebuilding mine right away. The new one's going to have to do, for a while. But for future reference, and to help anyone else looking for it, I'm going to go ahead and dump some more information that I've collected so far here:
I couldn't find much that was specific to my car's model year, but here's a post on rebuilding the points distributor on a classic Mustang's 289. Hopefully it's still mostly relevant. Technically, it looks like there aren't any bearings per se, just bushings. C5AZ-12120-A and C5AZ-12132-A may or may not be the right parts numbers for my application, but if so, the BWD parts catalog lists DG14 as a replacement for the former PN.
Because I don't have a press right now, I won't be rebuilding mine right away. The new one's going to have to do, for a while. But for future reference, and to help anyone else looking for it, I'm going to go ahead and dump some more information that I've collected so far here:
I couldn't find much that was specific to my car's model year, but here's a post on rebuilding the points distributor on a classic Mustang's 289. Hopefully it's still mostly relevant. Technically, it looks like there aren't any bearings per se, just bushings. C5AZ-12120-A and C5AZ-12132-A may or may not be the right parts numbers for my application, but if so, the BWD parts catalog lists DG14 as a replacement for the former PN.
Last edited by Urambo Tauro; 11-25-2017 at 11:45 AM.
11-28-2017, 09:44 PM
#9
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Well, I got my Richporter replacement (FD22) and went ahead and dropped it in. I set the base timing to about 12° BTDC, and it runs great. Voltage coming back out of the new stator/PIP is about 7.4-7.6V, plenty enough to satisfy both the ICM and the PCM, according to that tech article by Wells. I think my crank times got shorter, too.
It has the right connector, making it a direct fit for '94-'95 applications. But the housing must be from the same mold that's used for earlier models, as it has a big flat spot to mount an ICM/TFI module. No need for that here (remote mount). It does stand a little taller than my old OEM dizzy, though; I guess that bowl-mount ICMs must need the extra room to clear the intake.
The only fitment issue I ran into was that the factory plastic cover that goes on top doesn't seem to want to go into place. This might have something to do with the taller bowl on the distributor. The original one always gave me a hard time getting the back of the cover between the dizzy and the upper intake manifold. Maybe I'll get one of those rubber covers, or just leave it naked.
But anyway, I'm pretty convinced that this will have solved the intermittent crank/no-start issue. Now that I have the old one off of the car, I can feel some resistance in the shaft, and it even squeaks a little. I'd like to rebuild it with a Motorcraft DU50 stator/PIP some day, but that's going to have to wait until I figure out where to get bushings from. And of course I'll have to get my hands on a press too.
It has the right connector, making it a direct fit for '94-'95 applications. But the housing must be from the same mold that's used for earlier models, as it has a big flat spot to mount an ICM/TFI module. No need for that here (remote mount). It does stand a little taller than my old OEM dizzy, though; I guess that bowl-mount ICMs must need the extra room to clear the intake.
The only fitment issue I ran into was that the factory plastic cover that goes on top doesn't seem to want to go into place. This might have something to do with the taller bowl on the distributor. The original one always gave me a hard time getting the back of the cover between the dizzy and the upper intake manifold. Maybe I'll get one of those rubber covers, or just leave it naked.
But anyway, I'm pretty convinced that this will have solved the intermittent crank/no-start issue. Now that I have the old one off of the car, I can feel some resistance in the shaft, and it even squeaks a little. I'd like to rebuild it with a Motorcraft DU50 stator/PIP some day, but that's going to have to wait until I figure out where to get bushings from. And of course I'll have to get my hands on a press too.
Last edited by Urambo Tauro; 11-28-2017 at 09:47 PM.