Paxton Vs X-Charger
04-27-2009, 06:08 PM
#11
The X-Charger really shines in the street application imho. The almost instant torque and bulletproof reliability make this a very easy unit to live with on the street bolted up the the 4.0
Just another point to consider, in the past decade or two compare the number of production supercharged cars from major manufacturers using centri's (the big zippo) vs Eaton type positive displacement blowers (tons of models from Ford, GM, Mercedes, etc). The reason is the reliability. They don't want warranty headaches. They messed with Centri's in the 50's and 60's and moved on (granted todays centri units are more advanced)
Just another point to consider, in the past decade or two compare the number of production supercharged cars from major manufacturers using centri's (the big zippo) vs Eaton type positive displacement blowers (tons of models from Ford, GM, Mercedes, etc). The reason is the reliability. They don't want warranty headaches. They messed with Centri's in the 50's and 60's and moved on (granted todays centri units are more advanced)
04-27-2009, 06:35 PM
#12
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,172
Your crank calculations are not accurate, I already proved this in our last debate. You need to stop with the bench racing, there's a bench racing section, post your math over there.
Your math again...I love it, this is ****ing awesome! These are all speculations...we have to wait for someone to really do it!
The Xcharger is a great kit. I've driven it in several configurations on the street and on the track. But it is what it is, an awesome street kit, makes predictable power across the band and is very consistent. However, like I said, it is what it is, which is a MP90, which means it has its limits on efficiency. Anything smaller than a 2.5 pulley and it will start slipping, and it will be out of its efficiency range.
All things equal, built block, etc, the centri on a 1/4 (if that's your measurement of performance) will take out the XCharger due to being able to make more boost. On a 1/8th, the Xcharger owns. Which, on the street, a 1/8th ET is more applicable and adds to the fun factor.
If you want to see what a big positive displacement blower will make on the 4.0, watch Popeye010's (Brian) thread. He built and adapter to fit a M122 to his 4.0. He knows the blower may be too big for the 4.0, but hes willing to do the R&D.
I agree 100%. If the op wants good reliable power, the Vortech and Xcharger are both great options. Both have great support, and reliability. There's a lot of myth/hype about the Xcharger being more reliable, but so far, the years have shown both to be just fine, and good as a DD. But what can I say, there is a myth around here that TT's are superior in every way, shape or form.
We've seen a Vortech 4.0 in the 11's, and many boost only Vortech/Procharged stangs in the low to high 12's. I think the OP will be fine with either choice. If you go with a centri, just make sure you gear the car for it.
The Xcharger is a great kit. I've driven it in several configurations on the street and on the track. But it is what it is, an awesome street kit, makes predictable power across the band and is very consistent. However, like I said, it is what it is, which is a MP90, which means it has its limits on efficiency. Anything smaller than a 2.5 pulley and it will start slipping, and it will be out of its efficiency range.
All things equal, built block, etc, the centri on a 1/4 (if that's your measurement of performance) will take out the XCharger due to being able to make more boost. On a 1/8th, the Xcharger owns. Which, on the street, a 1/8th ET is more applicable and adds to the fun factor.
If you want to see what a big positive displacement blower will make on the 4.0, watch Popeye010's (Brian) thread. He built and adapter to fit a M122 to his 4.0. He knows the blower may be too big for the 4.0, but hes willing to do the R&D.
Like mentioned before, the x-charger will come on sooner on torque...
That's the caracteristic of the screw type.
I sure am not an expert on all this, so I'm not going to argue with anyone here.
I just know the basic principles, that's about it.
If it's any help, the fastest supercharged 4.0s seems to be the Vortech cars...
It doesn't really matter, because the OP isn't looking for a maximum HP, if not, she would have gotten a V8 to begin with I assume...
I believe the Vortech/Paxton and X-Charger with conservative boost, would make her happy.
That's the caracteristic of the screw type.
I sure am not an expert on all this, so I'm not going to argue with anyone here.
I just know the basic principles, that's about it.
If it's any help, the fastest supercharged 4.0s seems to be the Vortech cars...
It doesn't really matter, because the OP isn't looking for a maximum HP, if not, she would have gotten a V8 to begin with I assume...
I believe the Vortech/Paxton and X-Charger with conservative boost, would make her happy.
We've seen a Vortech 4.0 in the 11's, and many boost only Vortech/Procharged stangs in the low to high 12's. I think the OP will be fine with either choice. If you go with a centri, just make sure you gear the car for it.
04-27-2009, 08:34 PM
#15
S197 Section Modder-ator
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 13,373
04-27-2009, 08:48 PM
#16
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location:
Posts: 170
It's been proven by at least two different comparison threads which are backed up by dozens of people that intercooled centri superchargers are worse in every measurable and conceivable way to intercooled twin screw superchargers in applications for the mustang.
The x-charger should put out 340 hp at the crank though.
Now the x-charger isn't intercooled at that price range but the centri is. Based in intricately discussing the x-charger kit with the designer it's one of the best superchargers I've seen designed for the street. The paxton on the other hand looks like it was pulled out of some one's ***. It's shoddy design isn't that impressive compared to the v8 centris and even the Vortech kit for a Mazda3 looks better.
I wouldn't be surprised by looking at the ducting that the car makes even less than 10% less hp on the low end which is what paxton kits do with the v8's against twin screws, and it's not going to be as drivable as the x-charger which despite is high marks for power is primarily designed to be a safe and easy to live with setup.
The x-charger should put out 340 hp at the crank though.
Now the x-charger isn't intercooled at that price range but the centri is. Based in intricately discussing the x-charger kit with the designer it's one of the best superchargers I've seen designed for the street. The paxton on the other hand looks like it was pulled out of some one's ***. It's shoddy design isn't that impressive compared to the v8 centris and even the Vortech kit for a Mazda3 looks better.
I wouldn't be surprised by looking at the ducting that the car makes even less than 10% less hp on the low end which is what paxton kits do with the v8's against twin screws, and it's not going to be as drivable as the x-charger which despite is high marks for power is primarily designed to be a safe and easy to live with setup.
To the OP what do you want do with your car goal wise? Either will be a nice upgrade. If you are looking for instant torque and killer scream the X will fill the bill. If you want to maximize your ETs and track the car at the 1320. I say the centuri with enough gear to maximize the potential. So you have to ask what do you want out of the car? Good luck with your future mods.
04-28-2009, 07:16 AM
#18
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 855
I swear I've seen this thread before, like two years ago. Centri w/IC will always make more power. As far as the paxton, it appears to be an expensive Vortech with the Shelby name attached to it. Centri SC's just like any FI should be something the owner experiences before they jump into buying it. Decide what you want for your car, figure out how much $$$ you have, compromise (or bust out a new credit card) and build it your way. All we can do is offer opinions, some more educated than others but opinions nonetheless. Go for a ride in a car with the upgrades you're looking for and decide for yourself.
04-28-2009, 07:33 AM
#19
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 162
To the OP, wow do I feel for you. I went through this very decision a month ago, so I feel I have a horse in this race ( I know...boooo). Anyway, I heard all kinds of arguments both ways. Going FI, I don't think there is a wrong choice. When my wife gave me the greenlight to go FI, it was the best day of my life (ok second best..in case she reads this! LOL) but it caused great distress. That is, until I read the following post to my very same thread that you are making.....
" OK I missed this one somehow.
This is not intended to start a fight over what system is best as they all have their good and bad points. It really gets down to cost, application, reliability, availability and last but not least personal preference.
I admit that I am biased toward the X-Charger for street and daily driver use but since a lot of Vortec guys cued in here I will put in my thoughts for the X-Charger for you application.
First: In my opinion 4:10 are going to be to low for any FI system for a daily driver given the gear ratios of the V6 transmission. But this is more of a personal preference thing then a make it or break it deal.
Second: It is very important to remember you application. Most of the Vortex guys that have cued in are track junkies. You stated that you don't race and just like to cruise on weekends. You also pointed out that a lot of these guys get HP happy and just keep on stepping it up to the point they eventually get a GT and they usually step that up to. I have a friend of mine that took that all the way to building a jet land speed racer.
Third: IMO you will not find a better system out there then the X-Charger for a daily driver/street car. It has been proven to be extremely reliable and not hard on the engine as some worried about early on. I have 55,000 miles on my X-Charger and 85,000 miles on my Mustang and have not had any problem of any kind. Not even a belt which most of the centrifugal systems eat like candy as compared to the X-Charger. There are a lot of X-Chargers out that have similar mileage as mine with the same results. Due to the extreme RPMs they turn the centrifugals are hard on bearings and seals and if you do a search on a few of the sites you will find quite a few that have had to be rebuilt for this reason alone. The X-Charger turns reasonably slow and is very easy on belts, bearings and seals. Eaton only recommends doing an oil change on it at 100,000 miles. Which brings up another point and that is virtually every high production OEM FI is of the modified roots, twin screw or turbo type not centrifugal. There is a reason for this and it has to do with reliability not expense of manufacturing because the centrifugals are by far the cheapest and easiest to manufacture.
Forth: In it's current non-intercooled state the X-Charger does not make as much WOT horse power as the centrifugals but the intercooled version closes that gap considerably.
Fifth: On my recent trip to Shelby to promote my 6-Speed transmission conversion Vince LaViolette, Senior Designer, R&D, and Gary Patterson, VP of Operations, both drove my car. Vince said that the Paxton / Vortex they use on the CS6 and Terlingua are tuned extremely aggressive and put out 350RWHP but the power and torque doesn't even begin to come on as nice as the X-Charger. Just going buy dyno charts is no way to choose a supercharger for you application and this statement from Vince proves my point. With the new intercooler and some better exhaust Doug will be able to match or at least come very close to the numbers the Paxton / Vortec puts down also and keep that nice linear torque curve. Sure overall it is going to be more expensive the a Vortec but sometimes you get what you pay for.
Sixth: On another note Eaton is currently producing much more efficient TVS superchargers and it wouldn't surprised me at all to see one of these for our V6 Mustangs in the near future. "
That was on another site. I decided to go with the X charger, because it "felt" right to me. I should recieve it tomorrow actually, so I can't tell you how it performs, but I can tell you I'm happy I made a damn decision! I was getting caught up in HP and 1/4 mile numbers. I really never plan to race or anything like that. I just want to cruise with my wife on nice days. The other major deciding factor for me was Dave. He sent me the following email...
Hi Mike,
The next serial number is 106. We have reserved certain numbers as special requests and can do it again.
I understand how hard it is to make a big decision like this. I think that it's good that you're doing your homework.
A few words about myself and the X-C; My first car was a 65 Mustang Notchback / 289 4V / 4 speed which I bought used in the summer of 66. About 1 1/2 years later I put a used "Cobra" (Paxton) supercharger on it. Now all these years later, Mustang guys are choosing my supercharger and putting them on their Mustangs. It's a great full circle and I feel, well, kind of honored by the experience. Not to mention that the enthusiasm and loyalty of the X-men excites me. We started our shop, Z Doctor, in 1976 and we had some very good years and we're really pretty comfortable. We sold the building a few years back. It's in the Bay Area and real estate was pretty hot then. We don't need to pay the bills with the money we make with Explorer Express. I guess what I'm trying to say is if we talk, I'm not going to try to ram the X-C down you're throat. If you'd like, I think we should talk about your supercharger choice and your expectations. Certain units have strengths that make them better suited for particular uses. If it turns out that I think a turbo would be the best answer for YOU that's what I would recommend.
I'll be here on Monday 10AM - 4PM Pacific.
For more information, give us a call at 707-254-7025 Monday thru Thursday 10AM to 4PM Pacific time.
Thanks for your inquiry,
Dave Vanek
dave@explorerexpress.com
Well I called Dave and went with the X charger. Dave made it an easy decision. Hope all of this helps you. Again, I don't think there is a wrong choice when going FI.
" OK I missed this one somehow.
This is not intended to start a fight over what system is best as they all have their good and bad points. It really gets down to cost, application, reliability, availability and last but not least personal preference.
I admit that I am biased toward the X-Charger for street and daily driver use but since a lot of Vortec guys cued in here I will put in my thoughts for the X-Charger for you application.
First: In my opinion 4:10 are going to be to low for any FI system for a daily driver given the gear ratios of the V6 transmission. But this is more of a personal preference thing then a make it or break it deal.
Second: It is very important to remember you application. Most of the Vortex guys that have cued in are track junkies. You stated that you don't race and just like to cruise on weekends. You also pointed out that a lot of these guys get HP happy and just keep on stepping it up to the point they eventually get a GT and they usually step that up to. I have a friend of mine that took that all the way to building a jet land speed racer.
Third: IMO you will not find a better system out there then the X-Charger for a daily driver/street car. It has been proven to be extremely reliable and not hard on the engine as some worried about early on. I have 55,000 miles on my X-Charger and 85,000 miles on my Mustang and have not had any problem of any kind. Not even a belt which most of the centrifugal systems eat like candy as compared to the X-Charger. There are a lot of X-Chargers out that have similar mileage as mine with the same results. Due to the extreme RPMs they turn the centrifugals are hard on bearings and seals and if you do a search on a few of the sites you will find quite a few that have had to be rebuilt for this reason alone. The X-Charger turns reasonably slow and is very easy on belts, bearings and seals. Eaton only recommends doing an oil change on it at 100,000 miles. Which brings up another point and that is virtually every high production OEM FI is of the modified roots, twin screw or turbo type not centrifugal. There is a reason for this and it has to do with reliability not expense of manufacturing because the centrifugals are by far the cheapest and easiest to manufacture.
Forth: In it's current non-intercooled state the X-Charger does not make as much WOT horse power as the centrifugals but the intercooled version closes that gap considerably.
Fifth: On my recent trip to Shelby to promote my 6-Speed transmission conversion Vince LaViolette, Senior Designer, R&D, and Gary Patterson, VP of Operations, both drove my car. Vince said that the Paxton / Vortex they use on the CS6 and Terlingua are tuned extremely aggressive and put out 350RWHP but the power and torque doesn't even begin to come on as nice as the X-Charger. Just going buy dyno charts is no way to choose a supercharger for you application and this statement from Vince proves my point. With the new intercooler and some better exhaust Doug will be able to match or at least come very close to the numbers the Paxton / Vortec puts down also and keep that nice linear torque curve. Sure overall it is going to be more expensive the a Vortec but sometimes you get what you pay for.
Sixth: On another note Eaton is currently producing much more efficient TVS superchargers and it wouldn't surprised me at all to see one of these for our V6 Mustangs in the near future. "
That was on another site. I decided to go with the X charger, because it "felt" right to me. I should recieve it tomorrow actually, so I can't tell you how it performs, but I can tell you I'm happy I made a damn decision! I was getting caught up in HP and 1/4 mile numbers. I really never plan to race or anything like that. I just want to cruise with my wife on nice days. The other major deciding factor for me was Dave. He sent me the following email...
Hi Mike,
The next serial number is 106. We have reserved certain numbers as special requests and can do it again.
I understand how hard it is to make a big decision like this. I think that it's good that you're doing your homework.
A few words about myself and the X-C; My first car was a 65 Mustang Notchback / 289 4V / 4 speed which I bought used in the summer of 66. About 1 1/2 years later I put a used "Cobra" (Paxton) supercharger on it. Now all these years later, Mustang guys are choosing my supercharger and putting them on their Mustangs. It's a great full circle and I feel, well, kind of honored by the experience. Not to mention that the enthusiasm and loyalty of the X-men excites me. We started our shop, Z Doctor, in 1976 and we had some very good years and we're really pretty comfortable. We sold the building a few years back. It's in the Bay Area and real estate was pretty hot then. We don't need to pay the bills with the money we make with Explorer Express. I guess what I'm trying to say is if we talk, I'm not going to try to ram the X-C down you're throat. If you'd like, I think we should talk about your supercharger choice and your expectations. Certain units have strengths that make them better suited for particular uses. If it turns out that I think a turbo would be the best answer for YOU that's what I would recommend.
I'll be here on Monday 10AM - 4PM Pacific.
For more information, give us a call at 707-254-7025 Monday thru Thursday 10AM to 4PM Pacific time.
Thanks for your inquiry,
Dave Vanek
dave@explorerexpress.com
Well I called Dave and went with the X charger. Dave made it an easy decision. Hope all of this helps you. Again, I don't think there is a wrong choice when going FI.
