For those thinking of high HP - read this!
03-20-2006, 12:38 AM
#31
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
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RE: For those thinking of high HP - read this!
ORIGINAL: spyder7724
not yet but there are some good valvetrain components out now which will help a great deal. beehive valvesprings and adjustable solid lifters can increase rpm and allow the engine to rev quicker and higher without valvefloat. the limiting factor even for us n/a guys is still going to be rods and pistons. they won't handle much more than 7000 rpm if that. i won't try to spin mine that high on a regular basis since i'd like to keep this block intact for future use
not yet but there are some good valvetrain components out now which will help a great deal. beehive valvesprings and adjustable solid lifters can increase rpm and allow the engine to rev quicker and higher without valvefloat. the limiting factor even for us n/a guys is still going to be rods and pistons. they won't handle much more than 7000 rpm if that. i won't try to spin mine that high on a regular basis since i'd like to keep this block intact for future use
he posted over at forums.bradbarnett.net a week or two ago that it would be 1050 for cams, springs and retainers as a kit
again, this is not final fact, but he did say they were just now available
03-20-2006, 09:09 AM
#32
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Posts: 701
RE: For those thinking of high HP - read this!
Well put spyder. I had a similar idea but my plan is to go with the supercharger but keep it modest and enjoy this engine as is for a few years. By then the 5.4 and all of the knowledge, information and kits/parts will be readily available to drop it right in place of the 4.6. The 5.4 is cast-iron and will have much larger potential, built right. I think for a few years I'll be happy with 400hp. Then it will be time to look into doubling that. -Joe
03-20-2006, 12:10 PM
#33
MF Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Missouri
Posts: 3,441
RE: For those thinking of high HP - read this!
I always felt there is no replacement for displacement...
Sooo... pull that lil 281 out of there and drop in one of these!
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=6188
514 CUBIC INCH � 625 HP FORD RACING PERFORMANCE CRATE ENGINE ASSEMBLY
# Has Eagle� H-beam connecting rods M-6200-C514
# 625 HP @ 6250 RPM
# 600 ft./lbs. of torque @ 4800 RPM
# 9.8:1 compression ratio (nominal)
# Sturdy 460 2-bolt main short block M-6009-D514
# Cast nodular iron 4.300" stroker crank
# Ford Racing forged aluminum dished pistons with full floating pins
# Mechanical roller lifter camshaft with .647" lift, 254� intake and 258� exhaust duration @ .050" lobe lift
# M-6049-SCJB "Super Cobra Jet" aluminum cylinder heads
# M-9424-H429 "Victor Jr." single plane intake manifold (requires Dominator carb)
# 1.73:1 ratio aluminum roller rocker arms
Sooo... pull that lil 281 out of there and drop in one of these!
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=6188
514 CUBIC INCH � 625 HP FORD RACING PERFORMANCE CRATE ENGINE ASSEMBLY
# Has Eagle� H-beam connecting rods M-6200-C514
# 625 HP @ 6250 RPM
# 600 ft./lbs. of torque @ 4800 RPM
# 9.8:1 compression ratio (nominal)
# Sturdy 460 2-bolt main short block M-6009-D514
# Cast nodular iron 4.300" stroker crank
# Ford Racing forged aluminum dished pistons with full floating pins
# Mechanical roller lifter camshaft with .647" lift, 254� intake and 258� exhaust duration @ .050" lobe lift
# M-6049-SCJB "Super Cobra Jet" aluminum cylinder heads
# M-9424-H429 "Victor Jr." single plane intake manifold (requires Dominator carb)
# 1.73:1 ratio aluminum roller rocker arms
03-20-2006, 03:12 PM
#34
I ♥ Acer
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Join Date: Nov 2005
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RE: For those thinking of high HP - read this!
This turned out to be a great thread but a lot of you missed the point so I want to clarify a couple things...
1. I was NEVER saying going forced induction was bad or too expensive. I was taking about 600+ HP. I am living proof you can have 500 hp on the stock engine as I have done so for a year and 10K miles. I try to always stress the IMPORTANCE of the tune when going over 400 hp though as evident with our unfortunate friend and his vortech. (sorry BTW) Everytime I have tuned this car I am meticulous and take BABY STEPS with every adjustment I make. I never just make radical tune changes - I make SMALL INCREMENTAL CHANGES and monitor the effects and results each time. After each adjustment, I plug the predator into a laptop and discuss the results and cross-the-board character changes with several professionals (many times the predator guys in Flordia themselves) If any small change creates a dangerous curve, spike, or spark-out somewhere, I don't just re-adjust that parameter, I scrap the whole tune and start from scratch. THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF CUSTOM TUNING. Maybe a bit overboard, but this is the reason my car doesn't blow up.
2. With all the posts suggesting, "I guess I'll just have to go forged internals" it leads me to believe many of you missed the point of this thread. That's why I posted this, because I myself was convinced the weak link in these motors was simply the bottom end - specifically rods, crank, and pistons and by going forged internals, I would be fine. Now that they're are a lot of pro cars out there that have been through the ringer with modifications, we now know their are other factors that we didn't know before. One of the biggies is the valve train and springs. I haven't seen anyone talking about the importance of these components and it turns out it is just as important as the rods themselves when setting up this motor. So I wanted people to know it was a lot more than buying a forged internal kit to safegaurd your motor.
On an unrelated note, I have always said the saleen has potential but I hadn't seen anyone taking advantage of it. Well, I just saw a car personally that was running the saleen at 10 psi on a stock motor (minus the kit upgrade for the saleen) and he was making 470 rwhp on his street tune and 510 rwhp on his race tune and the car seems as though it will be running fine for a long time. Other than a roush kit, the car was just about all stock. Just want to give my props to the saleen camp and thank someone for showing first hand what I knew the saleen could do all along. I still think the $$$ factor doesn't = the KB, but you have got to respect those numbers with 10 psi.
I finally got definite times and I will have my motor in 3 weeks and installed and running in 4-5 so It will be awhile now but at least these dates are firm. I'm just workig on the 'show factor' now and getting the thing perty for now...[8D]
1. I was NEVER saying going forced induction was bad or too expensive. I was taking about 600+ HP. I am living proof you can have 500 hp on the stock engine as I have done so for a year and 10K miles. I try to always stress the IMPORTANCE of the tune when going over 400 hp though as evident with our unfortunate friend and his vortech. (sorry BTW) Everytime I have tuned this car I am meticulous and take BABY STEPS with every adjustment I make. I never just make radical tune changes - I make SMALL INCREMENTAL CHANGES and monitor the effects and results each time. After each adjustment, I plug the predator into a laptop and discuss the results and cross-the-board character changes with several professionals (many times the predator guys in Flordia themselves) If any small change creates a dangerous curve, spike, or spark-out somewhere, I don't just re-adjust that parameter, I scrap the whole tune and start from scratch. THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF CUSTOM TUNING. Maybe a bit overboard, but this is the reason my car doesn't blow up.
2. With all the posts suggesting, "I guess I'll just have to go forged internals" it leads me to believe many of you missed the point of this thread. That's why I posted this, because I myself was convinced the weak link in these motors was simply the bottom end - specifically rods, crank, and pistons and by going forged internals, I would be fine. Now that they're are a lot of pro cars out there that have been through the ringer with modifications, we now know their are other factors that we didn't know before. One of the biggies is the valve train and springs. I haven't seen anyone talking about the importance of these components and it turns out it is just as important as the rods themselves when setting up this motor. So I wanted people to know it was a lot more than buying a forged internal kit to safegaurd your motor.
On an unrelated note, I have always said the saleen has potential but I hadn't seen anyone taking advantage of it. Well, I just saw a car personally that was running the saleen at 10 psi on a stock motor (minus the kit upgrade for the saleen) and he was making 470 rwhp on his street tune and 510 rwhp on his race tune and the car seems as though it will be running fine for a long time. Other than a roush kit, the car was just about all stock. Just want to give my props to the saleen camp and thank someone for showing first hand what I knew the saleen could do all along. I still think the $$$ factor doesn't = the KB, but you have got to respect those numbers with 10 psi.
I finally got definite times and I will have my motor in 3 weeks and installed and running in 4-5 so It will be awhile now but at least these dates are firm. I'm just workig on the 'show factor' now and getting the thing perty for now...[8D]
03-20-2006, 05:06 PM
#35
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,225
RE: For those thinking of high HP - read this!
Hey CK, I know the information will be too late for your build, but when I get more info from the shop I go to about how to stroke one of these things without damaging the cylinder sleeves I will pass it along. We spoke briefly about it last weekend. They are pretty up on the situation, I barely mentioned it and Manny ( the owner of HPP Racing in Lewisville Tx) went in to a 10 minute spheel about how people aren't stroking them correctly, using the wrong rods, too tall of pistons, etc.
03-20-2006, 05:15 PM
#36
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RE: For those thinking of high HP - read this!
ORIGINAL: hawgman
Hey CK, I know the information will be too late for your build, but when I get more info from the shop I go to about how to stroke one of these things without damaging the cylinder sleeves I will pass it along. We spoke briefly about it last weekend. They are pretty up on the situation, I barely mentioned it and Manny ( the owner of HPP Racing in Lewisville Tx) went in to a 10 minute spheel about how people aren't stroking them correctly, using the wrong rods, too tall of pistons, etc.
Hey CK, I know the information will be too late for your build, but when I get more info from the shop I go to about how to stroke one of these things without damaging the cylinder sleeves I will pass it along. We spoke briefly about it last weekend. They are pretty up on the situation, I barely mentioned it and Manny ( the owner of HPP Racing in Lewisville Tx) went in to a 10 minute spheel about how people aren't stroking them correctly, using the wrong rods, too tall of pistons, etc.
03-20-2006, 05:25 PM
#37
I ♥ Acer
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Posts: 24
RE: For those thinking of high HP - read this!
1. I was NEVER saying going forced induction was bad or too expensive. I was taking about 600+ HP. I am living proof you can have 500 hp on the stock engine as I have done so for a year and 10K miles. I try to always stress the IMPORTANCE of the tune when going over 400 hp though as evident with our unfortunate friend and his vortech. (sorry BTW) Everytime I have tuned this car I am meticulous and take BABY STEPS with every adjustment I make. I never just make radical tune changes - I make SMALL INCREMENTAL CHANGES and monitor the effects and results each time. After each adjustment, I plug the predator into a laptop and discuss the results and cross-the-board character changes with several professionals (many times the predator guys in Flordia themselves) If any small change creates a dangerous curve, spike, or spark-out somewhere, I don't just re-adjust that parameter, I scrap the whole tune and start from scratch. THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF CUSTOM TUNING. Maybe a bit overboard, but this is the reason my car doesn't blow up.
03-20-2006, 05:33 PM
#38
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Join Date: Nov 2005
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RE: For those thinking of high HP - read this!
ORIGINAL: No Name
You do your own tuning??? According to your sig, ST does it.
1. I was NEVER saying going forced induction was bad or too expensive. I was taking about 600+ HP. I am living proof you can have 500 hp on the stock engine as I have done so for a year and 10K miles. I try to always stress the IMPORTANCE of the tune when going over 400 hp though as evident with our unfortunate friend and his vortech. (sorry BTW) Everytime I have tuned this car I am meticulous and take BABY STEPS with every adjustment I make. I never just make radical tune changes - I make SMALL INCREMENTAL CHANGES and monitor the effects and results each time. After each adjustment, I plug the predator into a laptop and discuss the results and cross-the-board character changes with several professionals (many times the predator guys in Flordia themselves) If any small change creates a dangerous curve, spike, or spark-out somewhere, I don't just re-adjust that parameter, I scrap the whole tune and start from scratch. THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF CUSTOM TUNING. Maybe a bit overboard, but this is the reason my car doesn't blow up.
03-20-2006, 08:15 PM
#39
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Posts: 111
RE: For those thinking of high HP - read this!
ChevyKiller: I would like to thank you for relating your experiences with your build. [sm=hail.gif] All you guys on this forum that are pushing the limits..... blazing new trails will make it easier for a mope like me to think about a power add down the road. Don't know if that will happen or not, but its cool as hell to watch you guys as you go through the process.[8D] But I sure do enjoy driving around in the boys college fund.
Good luck................and keep posting!
Good luck................and keep posting!
03-20-2006, 08:29 PM
#40
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Posts: 24
RE: For those thinking of high HP - read this!
ORIGINAL: chevykiller
Since you're new to the forums - let me give you a piece of advice, try not to read into every single word of people's posts and dissect them - just try to take the info you need or don't need from them. Adam Montague is my tuner and he alone tunes my car but I am present and help in every step of the process so I can understand my car myself and we try to make informed decisions together which is how your relationship with your tuner SHOULD be...
ORIGINAL: No Name
You do your own tuning??? According to your sig, ST does it.
1. I was NEVER saying going forced induction was bad or too expensive. I was taking about 600+ HP. I am living proof you can have 500 hp on the stock engine as I have done so for a year and 10K miles. I try to always stress the IMPORTANCE of the tune when going over 400 hp though as evident with our unfortunate friend and his vortech. (sorry BTW) Everytime I have tuned this car I am meticulous and take BABY STEPS with every adjustment I make. I never just make radical tune changes - I make SMALL INCREMENTAL CHANGES and monitor the effects and results each time. After each adjustment, I plug the predator into a laptop and discuss the results and cross-the-board character changes with several professionals (many times the predator guys in Flordia themselves) If any small change creates a dangerous curve, spike, or spark-out somewhere, I don't just re-adjust that parameter, I scrap the whole tune and start from scratch. THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF CUSTOM TUNING. Maybe a bit overboard, but this is the reason my car doesn't blow up.
You're a pretty funny guy. Just because you have more posts, doesn't mean you know more than me, nor does it mean I should take your advice. If you don't want people reading every word of your posts, then don't type things that aren't 100% accurate. The problem is that many people on these forums will believe everything that they read, even if it is guys like you blowing smoke up their skirt. That's too bad, because it does more harm than good in the long run.
And by the way, the relationship between me and my tuner is just fine thank you. But, if I went on a public forum and took personal credit for his work, do you think he would respect me for that? How does this Adam Montague feel about you taking credit for his efforts? In fact, since you provided a website link in your sig, maybe I'll just call him myself and ask him.