Why the hate for shorty headers?
if im gonna get headers, aren't any of the other shorties emmissions passable? in CT? if that helps?
03-07-2008, 12:19 AM
#22
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 2,691
RE: Why the hate for shorty headers?
I love GTOs... You cant have that much power without being respected.
But, they do look like ugly family cars, in fact they look like modern Grand-Ams. And looks mean something to me..... So mustang all the way.
But, they do look like ugly family cars, in fact they look like modern Grand-Ams. And looks mean something to me..... So mustang all the way.
03-07-2008, 12:21 AM
#23
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 2,209
RE: Why the hate for shorty headers?
whatever...also i lke the point made by ^^^ b4 about how LTs make it a b*tch to get to the clutch and what-not....
and anyone know more 'bout shorties and emissions in CT? gracias.
and anyone know more 'bout shorties and emissions in CT? gracias.
03-07-2008, 12:38 AM
#24
Multi-Tasking Moderator!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Detroit Rock City!
Posts: 15,618
RE: Why the hate for shorty headers?
I agree with everything Matt has said and to add a couple of things to the OP ..... the stock manifolds have a header like design compared to yesteryear. They actually flow very well from the factory. Now granted there are many companies out there that sell shorties and they do have minimal gains in comparison to the cost of the product and more importantly the install cost which is not easy (for many) to install and runs the labor bill up in the process for the install. LT's are great for N/A cars but IMO they are better for FI with the bigger primaries (1 3/4 inch) and being LT's they flow the exhaust gases out sooner and in turn reduce underhood temps and actually can lower the boost on any given FI setup because of the increased flow. It all boils down to what you want to do with the car and the gains or future upgrades that may help the car by having LT's vs. shorties. I cant see buying shorties for my application at this point because the car is supercharged and LT's would benefit me in the long run for what I want to do with the car and the applications I will use it for. Its a personal decision for anyone to get shorties vs. LT's and for me the only reason I would buy shorties is for the 304 SS and to get a better looking engine bay (cause I hate the rust the factory manifolds get almost immediately)....hope it helpsJ
ORIGINAL: howarmat
looking at dynos on the companys website isnt really an accurate way to seek the truth. Shorties have gains but they do not usually have them in the peak RPMS range i believe, so when they make a quote of 10 HP gained, it could be at the 2500 rpm range and then if you look around 5700-6200, there is a 3-5 hp difference maybe.
Companies dont take 1 car throw it on the dyno, then put a part on, dyno it again and call it a day.....they test 100s of cars, hell they can take a 05 mustang dyno it and a month later take another 05 mustang with the shorties and dyno that slap them together and say hey look, we got XX gains.....Car B might have had 7 hp more to begin with though. Also they tend to tack on other things like a tune and then use that graph, well a tuned car already will pick up 15 Hp lets say so the 3 HP picked up is dyno error more or less.
Its like this with all parts, remember they are trying to get money from you. There are companies out there that are better than others but there is always a ton of money put into marketing.
Shorties will get some gains, just not as much as LTs.......to get the best gains for either setup, proper tuning and other supporting mods are needed.
looking at dynos on the companys website isnt really an accurate way to seek the truth. Shorties have gains but they do not usually have them in the peak RPMS range i believe, so when they make a quote of 10 HP gained, it could be at the 2500 rpm range and then if you look around 5700-6200, there is a 3-5 hp difference maybe.
Companies dont take 1 car throw it on the dyno, then put a part on, dyno it again and call it a day.....they test 100s of cars, hell they can take a 05 mustang dyno it and a month later take another 05 mustang with the shorties and dyno that slap them together and say hey look, we got XX gains.....Car B might have had 7 hp more to begin with though. Also they tend to tack on other things like a tune and then use that graph, well a tuned car already will pick up 15 Hp lets say so the 3 HP picked up is dyno error more or less.
Its like this with all parts, remember they are trying to get money from you. There are companies out there that are better than others but there is always a ton of money put into marketing.
Shorties will get some gains, just not as much as LTs.......to get the best gains for either setup, proper tuning and other supporting mods are needed.
03-07-2008, 05:46 AM
#25
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jacksonville, Arkansas
Posts: 238
RE: Why the hate for shorty headers?
Ok, Gents and Ladies. I am hearing a lot about this o/r x-pipe. What kind of gains do you actually get from changing it? It is just a pipe. By the way this is my first mustang so, trying to learn a lot. Figured this was the best place. Also, what are the best long tubes?
[IMG]local://upfiles/90468/484CCAB9BEA04A5A848AEAC95BF200A5.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/90468/484CCAB9BEA04A5A848AEAC95BF200A5.jpg[/IMG]
03-07-2008, 07:31 AM
#26
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 157
RE: Why the hate for shorty headers?
Nothing wrong with shorty headers, they just need to be "tuned" or designed properly for our cars. The "big" difference between shorties and LT's is the O/R "H" or "X" pipes that have to go with them. Just about everyone that goes with LT's goes with the "X" pipe which has been dyno proven to flow better than the stock "H". That, along with removing the stock cats gives you alot of the HP gains with LT headers compared to shorties.
Now, about the "tuned" headers (shorties or LT's)....
The exhaust leaving the cylinders (under high temperature and pressure) behaves similar to the mushroom cloud of a big bomb. This is the "exhaust pulse" that is created when the exhaust valves open then close rapidly. The "top" of the cloud (or pulse) is the front of the pulse traveling down the pipes. This is also the high pressure part of the pulse. The part of the pulse or "cloud" that swirls under (to make the "mushroom") is the low pressure side which in the exhaust pipe actually creates such a low pressure, it's almost a complete vacuum. This helps to "scavenge" or pull the next pulse behind it down the pipe.
These pulses need to "line up" to get the best flow through the exhaust. If not, they don't work together to scavenge, but interfere with each other and reduce the flow characteristics of the exhaust. The exhaust diameter is also very important, because too large of a pipe will allow the exhaust to cool too quickly, which creates denser air (which is heavier and harder to push through the exhaust). FI cars can run larger diameter exhaust due to higher pressures and hotter temps. N/A cars can suffer performance losses due to oversized exhaust.
So, the sizing of the pipes and the "tuning" (getting all primaries the rightlength to line up the pulses) is what matters.
Now, if both shorties and LT's are designed properly, there IS one difference that will be apparent at various RPM's. Because the ability to flow well depends on these "pulses" lining up, the difference in length of the primary tubes plays a roll in where the "power" or best flow is achieved. Shorty headers have characteristics that allow the pulses to line up well at higher RPM's, giving their best increase in power up top. LT's will allow the pulses to line up well down low, as the primaries are longer, and scavenge well at lower RPM due to the fact that the exhaust pulses are travelling slower there, and remain in a smaller diameter tube longer, before merging at the collector. Also, most LT headers made for our cars have 1 5/8" primaries, most shorties have 1 3/4" although they also make 1 5/8" shorties which are a better choice for N/A applications.
The question that needs to be asked is "What is the difference between LT headers with O/R "X" or "H" pipes, and properly designed shorties WITH O/R "X" or "H" pipes"?
I believe many comparisons are made to either poorly designed shorties, and/or cars running shorties, but no aftermarket mid-pipes without cats.
Now, about the "tuned" headers (shorties or LT's)....
The exhaust leaving the cylinders (under high temperature and pressure) behaves similar to the mushroom cloud of a big bomb. This is the "exhaust pulse" that is created when the exhaust valves open then close rapidly. The "top" of the cloud (or pulse) is the front of the pulse traveling down the pipes. This is also the high pressure part of the pulse. The part of the pulse or "cloud" that swirls under (to make the "mushroom") is the low pressure side which in the exhaust pipe actually creates such a low pressure, it's almost a complete vacuum. This helps to "scavenge" or pull the next pulse behind it down the pipe.
These pulses need to "line up" to get the best flow through the exhaust. If not, they don't work together to scavenge, but interfere with each other and reduce the flow characteristics of the exhaust. The exhaust diameter is also very important, because too large of a pipe will allow the exhaust to cool too quickly, which creates denser air (which is heavier and harder to push through the exhaust). FI cars can run larger diameter exhaust due to higher pressures and hotter temps. N/A cars can suffer performance losses due to oversized exhaust.
So, the sizing of the pipes and the "tuning" (getting all primaries the rightlength to line up the pulses) is what matters.
Now, if both shorties and LT's are designed properly, there IS one difference that will be apparent at various RPM's. Because the ability to flow well depends on these "pulses" lining up, the difference in length of the primary tubes plays a roll in where the "power" or best flow is achieved. Shorty headers have characteristics that allow the pulses to line up well at higher RPM's, giving their best increase in power up top. LT's will allow the pulses to line up well down low, as the primaries are longer, and scavenge well at lower RPM due to the fact that the exhaust pulses are travelling slower there, and remain in a smaller diameter tube longer, before merging at the collector. Also, most LT headers made for our cars have 1 5/8" primaries, most shorties have 1 3/4" although they also make 1 5/8" shorties which are a better choice for N/A applications.
The question that needs to be asked is "What is the difference between LT headers with O/R "X" or "H" pipes, and properly designed shorties WITH O/R "X" or "H" pipes"?
I believe many comparisons are made to either poorly designed shorties, and/or cars running shorties, but no aftermarket mid-pipes without cats.
Last edited by Doc Holiday; 08-24-2009 at 12:13 PM.
03-07-2008, 08:17 AM
#27
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 2,209
RE: Why the hate for shorty headers?
ORIGINAL: Burnsy
whatever...also i lke the point made by ^^^ b4 about how LTs make it a b*tch to get to the clutch and what-not....
and anyone know more 'bout shorties and emissions in CT? gracias.
whatever...also i lke the point made by ^^^ b4 about how LTs make it a b*tch to get to the clutch and what-not....
and anyone know more 'bout shorties and emissions in CT? gracias.
03-07-2008, 10:12 AM
#29
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 671
RE: Why the hate for shorty headers?
ORIGINAL: Doc Holiday
Nothing wrong with shorty headers, they just need to be "tuned" or designed properly for our cars. The "big" difference between shorties and LT's is the O/R "H" or "X" pipes that have to go with them. Just about everyone that goes with LT's goes with the "X" pipe which has been dyno proven to flow better than the stock "H". That, along with removing the stock cats gives you alot of the HP gains with LT headers compared to shorties.
Now, about the "tuned" headers (shorties or LT's)....
The exhaust leaving the cylinders (under high temperature and pressure) behaves similar to the mushroom cloud of a big bomb. This is the "exhaust pulse" that is created when the exhaust valves open then close rapidly. The "top" of the cloud (or pulse) is the front of the pulse traveling down the pipes. This is also the high pressure part of the pulse. The part of the pulse or "cloud" that swirls under (to make the "mushroom") is the low pressure side which in the exhaust pipe actually creates such a low pressure, it's almost a complete vacuum. This helps to "scavenge" or pull the next pulse behind it down the pipe.
These pulses need to "line up" to get the best flow through the exhaust. If not, they don't work together to scavenge, but interfere with each other and reduce the flow characteristics of the exhaust. The exhaust diameter is also very important, because too large of a pipe will allow the exhaust to cool too quickly, which creates denser air (which is heavier and harder to push through the exhaust). FI cars can run larger diameter exhaust due to higher pressures and hotter temps. N/A cars can suffer performance losses due to oversized exhaust.
So, the sizing of the pipes and the "tuning" (getting all primaries the rightlength to line up the pulses) is what matters.
Now, if both shorties and LT's are designed properly, there IS one difference that will be apparent atvariousRPM's. Because the ability to flow well depends on these "pulses" lining up, the difference in length of the primary tubes plays a roll in where the "power" or best flow is achieved. Shorty headers have characteristics that allow the pulses to line up well at higher RPM's, giving their best increase in power up top. LT's will allow the pulses to line up well down low, as the primaries are longer, and scavenge well at lower RPM due to the fact that the exhaust pulses are travelling slower there, and remain in a smaller diameter tube longer, before merging at the collector. Also, most LT headers made for our carshave 1 5/8" primaries, most shorties have 1 3/4" although they also make 1 5/8" shorties which are a better choice for N/A applications.
The question that needs to be asked is "What is the difference between LT headers with O/R "X" or "H" pipes, and properly designed shorties WITH O/R "X" or "H" pipes"?
I believe many comparisons are made to either poorly designed shorties, and/or cars running shorties, but no aftermarket mid-pipes without cats.
Nothing wrong with shorty headers, they just need to be "tuned" or designed properly for our cars. The "big" difference between shorties and LT's is the O/R "H" or "X" pipes that have to go with them. Just about everyone that goes with LT's goes with the "X" pipe which has been dyno proven to flow better than the stock "H". That, along with removing the stock cats gives you alot of the HP gains with LT headers compared to shorties.
Now, about the "tuned" headers (shorties or LT's)....
The exhaust leaving the cylinders (under high temperature and pressure) behaves similar to the mushroom cloud of a big bomb. This is the "exhaust pulse" that is created when the exhaust valves open then close rapidly. The "top" of the cloud (or pulse) is the front of the pulse traveling down the pipes. This is also the high pressure part of the pulse. The part of the pulse or "cloud" that swirls under (to make the "mushroom") is the low pressure side which in the exhaust pipe actually creates such a low pressure, it's almost a complete vacuum. This helps to "scavenge" or pull the next pulse behind it down the pipe.
These pulses need to "line up" to get the best flow through the exhaust. If not, they don't work together to scavenge, but interfere with each other and reduce the flow characteristics of the exhaust. The exhaust diameter is also very important, because too large of a pipe will allow the exhaust to cool too quickly, which creates denser air (which is heavier and harder to push through the exhaust). FI cars can run larger diameter exhaust due to higher pressures and hotter temps. N/A cars can suffer performance losses due to oversized exhaust.
So, the sizing of the pipes and the "tuning" (getting all primaries the rightlength to line up the pulses) is what matters.
Now, if both shorties and LT's are designed properly, there IS one difference that will be apparent atvariousRPM's. Because the ability to flow well depends on these "pulses" lining up, the difference in length of the primary tubes plays a roll in where the "power" or best flow is achieved. Shorty headers have characteristics that allow the pulses to line up well at higher RPM's, giving their best increase in power up top. LT's will allow the pulses to line up well down low, as the primaries are longer, and scavenge well at lower RPM due to the fact that the exhaust pulses are travelling slower there, and remain in a smaller diameter tube longer, before merging at the collector. Also, most LT headers made for our carshave 1 5/8" primaries, most shorties have 1 3/4" although they also make 1 5/8" shorties which are a better choice for N/A applications.
The question that needs to be asked is "What is the difference between LT headers with O/R "X" or "H" pipes, and properly designed shorties WITH O/R "X" or "H" pipes"?
I believe many comparisons are made to either poorly designed shorties, and/or cars running shorties, but no aftermarket mid-pipes without cats.
I know when I installed the O/R X on my car, I had a marked improvement in 1/4 mile time (about .15 better). Until somebody actually goes throught the trouble of doing all of this it will just be speculation.
03-07-2008, 10:48 AM
#30
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,726
RE: Why the hate for shorty headers?
and now the GTO owners can bash me, flame me.. and do whatever the fck you want... either way... your going to feel like "God" bc you've got "400 hp"..
The LS2 is a way better platform for making power. The GTO does look like a grand am on roids though. Stangs look way better but I wish we had more cubes like an LS2