Thoughts on these mods?
04-08-2016, 09:56 PM
#11
5th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: kentucky
Posts: 2,241
Since these two are muddying up this thread with half truths and opinions, I'm going to jump in. If Cliffy was here, he could explain better but ill do my best.
After market tb/plenum.
First off, get both (the same size) and not just the throttle body. The bigger tb vs the stock plenum will cause turbulence and that's bad m-kay.
A tb/plenum set up will net you almost zero hp AT peak hp. The gains we are talking about are "under the curve." I'm not 100% sure since its been a while since I studied up on the subject, but less than 5-10 hp. Its more at throttle tip in than anywhere. I believe this is due to upper plenum volume and the amount off air the tb can let in at tip in. As rpm's increase, so will hp gain. So at hp peak, the velocity is more in play and why the gains are zero since the stock tb can supply a mild 4.6 enough.
Intake Manifold
The stock pi manifold IS THE BEST for a stock/mild 4.6. They don't heat soak and Ford did a dang good job on these. DO NOT BUY THE DORMAN VERSION! They screwed the pooch on that one some some reason. Only buy Ford.
I don't know much on the Hardballer, but the Proffesional Products aluminum manifold is a cheap copy of the stock pi manifold. On almost every pp manifold test I have seen, it lost hp, even before bad heat soak. The up side is they wont bust and can be ported, which is the only way to gain hp in any part of the rpm range. The casting on these are garbage and I woulnt own one personally. Ported they can benefit a warmed over 4.6 (big cams/power adder).
Eddy Manifold
This is a great manifold for high rpm 4.6 (7500 and up peak) and power adder like a turbo or blower. Unless you are upgrading later, do not run the factory style plenum with the adapter. No matter the plenum size, it has a choke point at the outlet. On a stock/mild 4.6, this intake will gain nothing and sometimes hurts low rpm power. I have seen some peak hp gains on a stock/mild 4.6 but not near enough to justify the cost.
Other manifolds
There are other manifolds that are slightly better for a stock/mild 4.6. The trickflow is a well designed manifold but for the small gains, the cost is a big downside. Plus you need a tb and cai to match. It is portable so that's another good point.
The bullet intake is about on the same playing field as the pi, maybe slight gains. But it is portable and great looking.
The SVO npi intake. Surprising, this aluminum intake (which is where the bullet intake comes from) has solid gains of around 5 hp from tip in to almost peak against a pi intake. I bough one cheap a while back and did research to find several good resources providing the same data. I do suggest having it gasket matched to pi heads though. They are hard to find though.
As mentioned above there are better ways to spend youre money to be "faster." I'm just providing facts and not opinions.
After market tb/plenum.
First off, get both (the same size) and not just the throttle body. The bigger tb vs the stock plenum will cause turbulence and that's bad m-kay.
A tb/plenum set up will net you almost zero hp AT peak hp. The gains we are talking about are "under the curve." I'm not 100% sure since its been a while since I studied up on the subject, but less than 5-10 hp. Its more at throttle tip in than anywhere. I believe this is due to upper plenum volume and the amount off air the tb can let in at tip in. As rpm's increase, so will hp gain. So at hp peak, the velocity is more in play and why the gains are zero since the stock tb can supply a mild 4.6 enough.
Intake Manifold
The stock pi manifold IS THE BEST for a stock/mild 4.6. They don't heat soak and Ford did a dang good job on these. DO NOT BUY THE DORMAN VERSION! They screwed the pooch on that one some some reason. Only buy Ford.
I don't know much on the Hardballer, but the Proffesional Products aluminum manifold is a cheap copy of the stock pi manifold. On almost every pp manifold test I have seen, it lost hp, even before bad heat soak. The up side is they wont bust and can be ported, which is the only way to gain hp in any part of the rpm range. The casting on these are garbage and I woulnt own one personally. Ported they can benefit a warmed over 4.6 (big cams/power adder).
Eddy Manifold
This is a great manifold for high rpm 4.6 (7500 and up peak) and power adder like a turbo or blower. Unless you are upgrading later, do not run the factory style plenum with the adapter. No matter the plenum size, it has a choke point at the outlet. On a stock/mild 4.6, this intake will gain nothing and sometimes hurts low rpm power. I have seen some peak hp gains on a stock/mild 4.6 but not near enough to justify the cost.
Other manifolds
There are other manifolds that are slightly better for a stock/mild 4.6. The trickflow is a well designed manifold but for the small gains, the cost is a big downside. Plus you need a tb and cai to match. It is portable so that's another good point.
The bullet intake is about on the same playing field as the pi, maybe slight gains. But it is portable and great looking.
The SVO npi intake. Surprising, this aluminum intake (which is where the bullet intake comes from) has solid gains of around 5 hp from tip in to almost peak against a pi intake. I bough one cheap a while back and did research to find several good resources providing the same data. I do suggest having it gasket matched to pi heads though. They are hard to find though.
As mentioned above there are better ways to spend youre money to be "faster." I'm just providing facts and not opinions.
04-09-2016, 08:34 AM
#12
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: wi
Posts: 26
Ok, I'm kinda confused now???? So adding a 75TB/Plenum will hurt HP? My plan was to go with that combo and get a custom tune. Probably leave it at that as it is a DD for me. Gears would decrease MPG, (not a big deal) but not sure I want to spend that much quite yet. It is in the plan for the future possibly.
I also only run 91 octane non ethanol gas.
Thanks
I also only run 91 octane non ethanol gas.
Thanks
04-09-2016, 05:31 PM
#14
Underboss
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Helaware
Posts: 20,273
06-12-2016, 10:19 AM
#15
Join Date: May 2014
Location: la
Posts: 46
nick?
I sure would like to see some dyno sheets on the bbk 78mm unit loosing hp? , I believe any change anyplace in the intake requires a tune, as the mas air transfer functions will change, and this is vital this be spot on on these motors,
why buy upgraded parts and not tune? just because you can get away with it, its counter productive to performance.
Nick McKinney 'RIP" used the 78mm with good effect for years, in n/a, and boosted cars, one thing I do see is using a smaller than 3" cai tube , and then the 78mm bbk would kill velocity some? again would like to see dyno sheets on this. but using a cai with a tube the same size or larger would not do that, using a jlt set up, that's 4" and then necking down to 3" or 78mm, would not and that's what nick recommended, when you see his parts list put together it all makes sense from an airflow perspective.
and this is just air pump, like all engines are.
off the top of my head.
300 hp n/a
bbk 78mm about 3"
90mm lighting maf. this has 4" inlet and outlets.
jlt cai or ram air. "4 tube.
24 lbs ford racing injectors.
mhs stage 2 heads
stage 2.5 or 2p bullet cams.
too bad excessive removed all nicks data.....
its not this or that part that's the magic bullet. but all the parts working together, and this motor has been around awhile, pick a hp goal, read up on what works, find actual dyno sheet proof that it will meet your needs, vrs just another sale for a parts guy. or mismatched parts that do not work together. gather parts for your goal, meet your goal with few surprises or wasted money.
worked for me and my drag bikes, may work for you too....
just my two cents.
why buy upgraded parts and not tune? just because you can get away with it, its counter productive to performance.
Nick McKinney 'RIP" used the 78mm with good effect for years, in n/a, and boosted cars, one thing I do see is using a smaller than 3" cai tube , and then the 78mm bbk would kill velocity some? again would like to see dyno sheets on this. but using a cai with a tube the same size or larger would not do that, using a jlt set up, that's 4" and then necking down to 3" or 78mm, would not and that's what nick recommended, when you see his parts list put together it all makes sense from an airflow perspective.
and this is just air pump, like all engines are.
off the top of my head.
300 hp n/a
bbk 78mm about 3"
90mm lighting maf. this has 4" inlet and outlets.
jlt cai or ram air. "4 tube.
24 lbs ford racing injectors.
mhs stage 2 heads
stage 2.5 or 2p bullet cams.
too bad excessive removed all nicks data.....
its not this or that part that's the magic bullet. but all the parts working together, and this motor has been around awhile, pick a hp goal, read up on what works, find actual dyno sheet proof that it will meet your needs, vrs just another sale for a parts guy. or mismatched parts that do not work together. gather parts for your goal, meet your goal with few surprises or wasted money.
worked for me and my drag bikes, may work for you too....
just my two cents.
06-12-2016, 10:18 PM
#16
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: wi
Posts: 26
Thanks for the insight. I think I may be going in a more aggressive direction. I am going to move up to 3.73 gears and just some cosmetic things over the summer. When the car get put away for the winter the power mods will be in progress.
My plans are: Bigger TB/Plenem, Port and polish heads, stage 3 cam, and long tube headers with shorty off road X pipe. I may have to go up to 24lb injectors also.
Thoughts? Am I missing something vital?
I do have a Tuner also.
My plans are: Bigger TB/Plenem, Port and polish heads, stage 3 cam, and long tube headers with shorty off road X pipe. I may have to go up to 24lb injectors also.
Thoughts? Am I missing something vital?
I do have a Tuner also.
06-12-2016, 10:44 PM
#17
6th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,448
I sure would like to see some dyno sheets on the bbk 78mm unit loosing hp? , I believe any change anyplace in the intake requires a tune, as the mas air transfer functions will change, and this is vital this be spot on on these motors,
why buy upgraded parts and not tune? just because you can get away with it, its counter productive to performance.
Nick McKinney 'RIP" used the 78mm with good effect for years, in n/a, and boosted cars, one thing I do see is using a smaller than 3" cai tube , and then the 78mm bbk would kill velocity some? again would like to see dyno sheets on this. but using a cai with a tube the same size or larger would not do that, using a jlt set up, that's 4" and then necking down to 3" or 78mm, would not and that's what nick recommended, when you see his parts list put together it all makes sense from an airflow perspective.
and this is just air pump, like all engines are.
off the top of my head.
300 hp n/a
bbk 78mm about 3"
90mm lighting maf. this has 4" inlet and outlets.
jlt cai or ram air. "4 tube.
24 lbs ford racing injectors.
mhs stage 2 heads
stage 2.5 or 2p bullet cams.
too bad excessive removed all nicks data.....
its not this or that part that's the magic bullet. but all the parts working together, and this motor has been around awhile, pick a hp goal, read up on what works, find actual dyno sheet proof that it will meet your needs, vrs just another sale for a parts guy. or mismatched parts that do not work together. gather parts for your goal, meet your goal with few surprises or wasted money.
worked for me and my drag bikes, may work for you too....
just my two cents.
why buy upgraded parts and not tune? just because you can get away with it, its counter productive to performance.
Nick McKinney 'RIP" used the 78mm with good effect for years, in n/a, and boosted cars, one thing I do see is using a smaller than 3" cai tube , and then the 78mm bbk would kill velocity some? again would like to see dyno sheets on this. but using a cai with a tube the same size or larger would not do that, using a jlt set up, that's 4" and then necking down to 3" or 78mm, would not and that's what nick recommended, when you see his parts list put together it all makes sense from an airflow perspective.
and this is just air pump, like all engines are.
off the top of my head.
300 hp n/a
bbk 78mm about 3"
90mm lighting maf. this has 4" inlet and outlets.
jlt cai or ram air. "4 tube.
24 lbs ford racing injectors.
mhs stage 2 heads
stage 2.5 or 2p bullet cams.
too bad excessive removed all nicks data.....
its not this or that part that's the magic bullet. but all the parts working together, and this motor has been around awhile, pick a hp goal, read up on what works, find actual dyno sheet proof that it will meet your needs, vrs just another sale for a parts guy. or mismatched parts that do not work together. gather parts for your goal, meet your goal with few surprises or wasted money.
worked for me and my drag bikes, may work for you too....
just my two cents.
06-15-2016, 10:19 PM
#18
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,826
Disconnect battery, install parts, reconnect battery, enjoy.