Tuner/tuning/dyno question...
12-07-2014, 09:46 PM
#1
Tuner/tuning/dyno question...
Ok, I bought and installed this top end kit http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/...op-End-Kit-Blk on my 1990 5.0 Notch with a fresh 308ci. short block without forged pistons. Currently the stock computer or ecu is managing to keep the car running pretty damn good but it has a super rough idle when it's cold. Sometimes I have to start the car two or three times to get it to keep running but once it runs it stays running, rough but running til it gets some warmth in it. I also installed Ford Racing 24lb injectors, new 155 LPH fuel pump, BBK 76mm mass air, BBK 76mm throttle body, BBK cold air intake and BBK shorty headers.
I'm sure the car needs a tuner/chip/whatever to make the motor run smoother but I have no clue as to what is the best option or what option to buy for that matter that will work with most of the local dyno/tuning shops equipment. I'm not interested in it being a race car but more of a daily driver with some *** when needed. I'm new to this muscle car thing to be honest but know enough to get by so I'm just here looking for help to get pointed in the right direction when it comes to getting a EFI motor tuned CORRECTLY.
Thanks
P.S. If more info is needed please ask away.
I'm sure the car needs a tuner/chip/whatever to make the motor run smoother but I have no clue as to what is the best option or what option to buy for that matter that will work with most of the local dyno/tuning shops equipment. I'm not interested in it being a race car but more of a daily driver with some *** when needed. I'm new to this muscle car thing to be honest but know enough to get by so I'm just here looking for help to get pointed in the right direction when it comes to getting a EFI motor tuned CORRECTLY.
Thanks
P.S. If more info is needed please ask away.
12-08-2014, 06:51 AM
#2
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: RI
Posts: 254
You can either:
Purchase a Moates Quarterhorse and a piece of tuning software like Binary Editor, and have someone like myself tune it for you remotely...
OR
Go find a local Mustang performance shop, and buy whatever they tell you to get.
Purchase a Moates Quarterhorse and a piece of tuning software like Binary Editor, and have someone like myself tune it for you remotely...
OR
Go find a local Mustang performance shop, and buy whatever they tell you to get.
12-08-2014, 07:47 AM
#3
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,061
Here's my opinion, which doesn't mean much as these guys on here actually know what they're talking about when it comes to tuning.
But, since you just had the top end off. I'd verify ( double check) you have all vacuum lines connected or plugged off. And I hope you didn't reuse any old hose on that great kit. A smoke check would really simplify things for this. And I'll assume that MAF is calibrated for the 24's.
You could also pull codes to see if there's anything stored. May help track this problem down. Try the simple things first before opening the wallet.
My car with the mods listed is still on the stock ECM, and has been near perfect with adapting to those. Driveability and AFR at all throttle positions has been spot on. I'm not saying a tune won't hurt, but make sure it's not something you overlooked first. Good luck
But, since you just had the top end off. I'd verify ( double check) you have all vacuum lines connected or plugged off. And I hope you didn't reuse any old hose on that great kit. A smoke check would really simplify things for this. And I'll assume that MAF is calibrated for the 24's.
You could also pull codes to see if there's anything stored. May help track this problem down. Try the simple things first before opening the wallet.
My car with the mods listed is still on the stock ECM, and has been near perfect with adapting to those. Driveability and AFR at all throttle positions has been spot on. I'm not saying a tune won't hurt, but make sure it's not something you overlooked first. Good luck
12-08-2014, 08:12 PM
#4
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 325
I'm with orange peel, if the MA is set up for 24# injectors, and everything is working correctly, you should have a smooth idle. The A9L computers are awesome for working with modifications, and don't require tuning until you stroke or super/turbo charge the engine.
12-08-2014, 11:42 PM
#5
This diagram is exactly how my engine vacuum is set up. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...electedIndex=0
***with the exception of the air diverter and air bypass valves which are plugged. The Tee on the firewall side of the upper intake has a vacuum line going to the S block on the firewall and a vacuum line going into the passenger side of the car controlling the A/C flap position. There is a vacuum line on the radiator side of the intake going to the vacuum canister attached to the lower right (passenger side) front frame rail. Also a line from the upper intake going to the head of the upper intake that terminates at the pcv valve on the rear of the motor.
The other side of the vacuum tee on the upper intake is connected to a regulator looking thing on the fuel rail.
***with the exception of the air diverter and air bypass valves which are plugged. The Tee on the firewall side of the upper intake has a vacuum line going to the S block on the firewall and a vacuum line going into the passenger side of the car controlling the A/C flap position. There is a vacuum line on the radiator side of the intake going to the vacuum canister attached to the lower right (passenger side) front frame rail. Also a line from the upper intake going to the head of the upper intake that terminates at the pcv valve on the rear of the motor.
The other side of the vacuum tee on the upper intake is connected to a regulator looking thing on the fuel rail.
Last edited by SWGSSSlacker; 12-09-2014 at 12:08 AM.
12-09-2014, 12:11 AM
#6
12-09-2014, 12:18 AM
#7
I did after verifying the vacuum lines were correct (incorrectly correct) find a vacuum line that came off of my NEW EGR valve on the throttle body so I reconnected it. I will have to wait until I leave work this morning (working graveyards) to see if it makes a difference. I'll keep you posted.
Last edited by SWGSSSlacker; 12-09-2014 at 01:20 AM.
12-09-2014, 05:40 AM
#8
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: ohio
Posts: 3,628
With your set up you shouldn't need a tune to make it idle and run good.
The vacuum line at the egr shouldn't even show any vacuum at all at idle since the vacuum solenoid that operates the egr would not be active.
When I had my 90 lx with a cobra intake, ford racing heads, an E cam, with 30lb injectors, the idle was kinda goofy when it was cold and it would choke itself out until warmed up. And it was running pig rich. What I did to solve it was simply turn the MAF housing so that the sample tube was facing the fender skirt. This put it in a position where the incoming air was a bit slower due to the bend in the elbow. Once I did that the Idle cleaned up and it would start right up and Idle smooth as butter.
Another thing you can do is check your fuel pressure. Did you install an adjustable FPR ? If your fuel pressure is above 38psi it may cause Idle issues especially when cold. Dial it back a little, I tried to shoot for 35psi on my set up and that seemed to be the sweet spot.
I am assuming that you performed the usual KOEO and KOER tests to see if its popping any codes? I suspect your going to see a rich code in there some place.
How old are the O2 sensors? If they have never been replaced I suggest replacing both of them. And make sure you don't have any exhaust leaks at the headers. Any air getting pulled in before the O2s will cause idle/drivability issues and can cause the ecm to dump more fuel than needed.
Check the ECT as well, A faulty engine coolant temp sensor will cause all kinds of cold idle trouble, and may even cause drivability issues. In fact the ECT may read correctly when the car is warm, but when its cold it may be telling the computer that the engine is way colder than it is.
Personally I wouldn't spend the money for a tune until I got the Idle problem sorted out. You cant tune around a mechanical or electrical problem. Then a tune will only help you squeeze the most out of your set up.
If your only symptom is a cold idle start , but otherwise the car runs strong once its warmed up, I doubt that a tune will solve the cold idle start.
The vacuum line at the egr shouldn't even show any vacuum at all at idle since the vacuum solenoid that operates the egr would not be active.
When I had my 90 lx with a cobra intake, ford racing heads, an E cam, with 30lb injectors, the idle was kinda goofy when it was cold and it would choke itself out until warmed up. And it was running pig rich. What I did to solve it was simply turn the MAF housing so that the sample tube was facing the fender skirt. This put it in a position where the incoming air was a bit slower due to the bend in the elbow. Once I did that the Idle cleaned up and it would start right up and Idle smooth as butter.
Another thing you can do is check your fuel pressure. Did you install an adjustable FPR ? If your fuel pressure is above 38psi it may cause Idle issues especially when cold. Dial it back a little, I tried to shoot for 35psi on my set up and that seemed to be the sweet spot.
I am assuming that you performed the usual KOEO and KOER tests to see if its popping any codes? I suspect your going to see a rich code in there some place.
How old are the O2 sensors? If they have never been replaced I suggest replacing both of them. And make sure you don't have any exhaust leaks at the headers. Any air getting pulled in before the O2s will cause idle/drivability issues and can cause the ecm to dump more fuel than needed.
Check the ECT as well, A faulty engine coolant temp sensor will cause all kinds of cold idle trouble, and may even cause drivability issues. In fact the ECT may read correctly when the car is warm, but when its cold it may be telling the computer that the engine is way colder than it is.
Personally I wouldn't spend the money for a tune until I got the Idle problem sorted out. You cant tune around a mechanical or electrical problem. Then a tune will only help you squeeze the most out of your set up.
If your only symptom is a cold idle start , but otherwise the car runs strong once its warmed up, I doubt that a tune will solve the cold idle start.
12-10-2014, 08:48 PM
#9
With your set up you shouldn't need a tune to make it idle and run good.
The vacuum line at the egr shouldn't even show any vacuum at all at idle since the vacuum solenoid that operates the egr would not be active.
When I had my 90 lx with a cobra intake, ford racing heads, an E cam, with 30lb injectors, the idle was kinda goofy when it was cold and it would choke itself out until warmed up. And it was running pig rich. What I did to solve it was simply turn the MAF housing so that the sample tube was facing the fender skirt. This put it in a position where the incoming air was a bit slower due to the bend in the elbow. Once I did that the Idle cleaned up and it would start right up and Idle smooth as butter.
Another thing you can do is check your fuel pressure. Did you install an adjustable FPR ? If your fuel pressure is above 38psi it may cause Idle issues especially when cold. Dial it back a little, I tried to shoot for 35psi on my set up and that seemed to be the sweet spot.
I am assuming that you performed the usual KOEO and KOER tests to see if its popping any codes? I suspect your going to see a rich code in there some place.
How old are the O2 sensors? If they have never been replaced I suggest replacing both of them. And make sure you don't have any exhaust leaks at the headers. Any air getting pulled in before the O2s will cause idle/drivability issues and can cause the ecm to dump more fuel than needed.
Check the ECT as well, A faulty engine coolant temp sensor will cause all kinds of cold idle trouble, and may even cause drivability issues. In fact the ECT may read correctly when the car is warm, but when its cold it may be telling the computer that the engine is way colder than it is.
Personally I wouldn't spend the money for a tune until I got the Idle problem sorted out. You cant tune around a mechanical or electrical problem. Then a tune will only help you squeeze the most out of your set up.
If your only symptom is a cold idle start , but otherwise the car runs strong once its warmed up, I doubt that a tune will solve the cold idle start.
The vacuum line at the egr shouldn't even show any vacuum at all at idle since the vacuum solenoid that operates the egr would not be active.
When I had my 90 lx with a cobra intake, ford racing heads, an E cam, with 30lb injectors, the idle was kinda goofy when it was cold and it would choke itself out until warmed up. And it was running pig rich. What I did to solve it was simply turn the MAF housing so that the sample tube was facing the fender skirt. This put it in a position where the incoming air was a bit slower due to the bend in the elbow. Once I did that the Idle cleaned up and it would start right up and Idle smooth as butter.
Another thing you can do is check your fuel pressure. Did you install an adjustable FPR ? If your fuel pressure is above 38psi it may cause Idle issues especially when cold. Dial it back a little, I tried to shoot for 35psi on my set up and that seemed to be the sweet spot.
I am assuming that you performed the usual KOEO and KOER tests to see if its popping any codes? I suspect your going to see a rich code in there some place.
How old are the O2 sensors? If they have never been replaced I suggest replacing both of them. And make sure you don't have any exhaust leaks at the headers. Any air getting pulled in before the O2s will cause idle/drivability issues and can cause the ecm to dump more fuel than needed.
Check the ECT as well, A faulty engine coolant temp sensor will cause all kinds of cold idle trouble, and may even cause drivability issues. In fact the ECT may read correctly when the car is warm, but when its cold it may be telling the computer that the engine is way colder than it is.
Personally I wouldn't spend the money for a tune until I got the Idle problem sorted out. You cant tune around a mechanical or electrical problem. Then a tune will only help you squeeze the most out of your set up.
If your only symptom is a cold idle start , but otherwise the car runs strong once its warmed up, I doubt that a tune will solve the cold idle start.
Did you rotate the sensor body on the mass air flow body? I ask because I rotated the whole MAF body in the rubber hoses but it made no difference.
I'm going to pick up an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and gauge.
Is there an FPR that will work on the stock fuel rail ? I'm still using the stock fuel rail because it was listed as usable with 24lb. injectors on LateModelRestoration.com.
I did the KOEO and the KOER tests today after purchasing a code reader.
KOEO: I found a code 34 - EGR valve position sensor or pressure feedback
sensor. Either the signal voltage is out of limits, signal voltage above closed limit or signal indicates insufficient EGR flow. The EGR valve and EGR position sensor are NEW.
KOER: I found a code 34 (see above), a code 41 - EGO sensor voltage signal always "lean" (low value) - does not switch. A code 91 - EGO sensor signal voltage always indicates "lean" either during run engine self test (rich air/fuel conditions) or normal engine operating conditions.
The O2 sensors in the car were there when I bought it but I will be replacing them soon.
I reused the ECT sensor that was on the car but I will replace it soon. I did replace the air charge temp sending unit on the intake though.
I will hold off on the tune for now. Yes, the car runs awesome, my only issue is the rough idle at start up. Once the car is good and warm all is well, the idle is still a little rough but not like it is when it's cold.
Last edited by SWGSSSlacker; 12-10-2014 at 08:51 PM.
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