Bizzare starter issues! Need help.
07-27-2009, 08:08 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 16
Bizzare starter issues! Need help.
OK, its like this... A while back the starter on my 66 ragtop (289 auto) gave up the ghost so I replaced it. Ever since then, when I go to start the car, it'll start, but the starter won't stop spinning. You know, that horrible grinding noise that you hear when you accidently bump the starter on an engine that's already running! Now just imagine that sound for 2, 3 or 4 minutes while you try to find a tool to disconnect the battery. It doesn't do this all the time but when it does, disconnecting the battery is the only way to make it stop.
This happened often enough that it fried the bendix on the new starter and I put another new starter in it along with a quick-disconnect for the battery.
I've also replaced the starter solenoid twice since then which changed nothing. I've also replaced the ignition switch which also changed nothing so I don't think it's either of those things. I changed none of the wiring except to put a fresh cable going down to the starter. The battery, alternator and voltage regulator are also new.
Someone had mentioned that some of the early Mustangs took a different starter depending on whether or not it was a convertible (which mine is) but I haven't been able to find anyone else who has ever heard that. Besides, starters are pretty simple things. I can't imagine how different they could possibly be. There's only one wire to work with.
This never, ever happend with the previous starter. What the #!!*$@ is going on? Any help would be greatly appreciated. This is my daily driver and I need it to work.
This happened often enough that it fried the bendix on the new starter and I put another new starter in it along with a quick-disconnect for the battery.
I've also replaced the starter solenoid twice since then which changed nothing. I've also replaced the ignition switch which also changed nothing so I don't think it's either of those things. I changed none of the wiring except to put a fresh cable going down to the starter. The battery, alternator and voltage regulator are also new.
Someone had mentioned that some of the early Mustangs took a different starter depending on whether or not it was a convertible (which mine is) but I haven't been able to find anyone else who has ever heard that. Besides, starters are pretty simple things. I can't imagine how different they could possibly be. There's only one wire to work with.
This never, ever happend with the previous starter. What the #!!*$@ is going on? Any help would be greatly appreciated. This is my daily driver and I need it to work.
07-28-2009, 01:57 AM
#2
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 6,417
Hiya,
very odd problem alright. so if i get you right, it usually is 'normal' but just sometimes the thing won't stop spinning (doesn't disengage).
the options are:
wrong size starter so the bendix is getting stuck in flywheel
flywheel notched from wrong disengaging holding the bendix in there
or the starter getting power when it shouldn't
Get a Voltmeter
measure the 2nd port from left on selonoid (small left one, usually marked 'S')
there should be no voltage against battery minus when key is in ignition position.
Have someone start and during start you should have voltage (probably not full 12V). Once you stop starting (car running and key in ignition position) you should have no voltage there anymore
If the car is running and the starter is still spinning, then measure:
a) Voltage like before 'S' port on selonoid against battery minus
and
b) Voltage from the big right port on selonoid going to starter against battery minus
If you have no voltage on either, I'd say it's mechanical problem, starter has problem disengaging
if you have voltage at test a), then it's no wonder the starter still spins and we have to check what's wrong with yopur cabling
if you have voltage at test b) but not a) I need to check if there's a possibility your starter has turned into an alternator from being spun by flywheel or whatever could be the cause for this
In any case, test and come back.
at the same time report every single cable that is connected to:
- 'S' port of selonoid. how many cables and where do they go to. It should only be one going to neutral saftety switch (if you have auto), or ignition switch directly (if manual)
- 'I' port of Solonoid. Should be max one cable. if there is one, it should go to coil+
- starter side of selonoid (right hand side). only one cable going to starter, nothing else.
come back with the results and we see from there.
very odd problem alright. so if i get you right, it usually is 'normal' but just sometimes the thing won't stop spinning (doesn't disengage).
the options are:
wrong size starter so the bendix is getting stuck in flywheel
flywheel notched from wrong disengaging holding the bendix in there
or the starter getting power when it shouldn't
Get a Voltmeter
measure the 2nd port from left on selonoid (small left one, usually marked 'S')
there should be no voltage against battery minus when key is in ignition position.
Have someone start and during start you should have voltage (probably not full 12V). Once you stop starting (car running and key in ignition position) you should have no voltage there anymore
If the car is running and the starter is still spinning, then measure:
a) Voltage like before 'S' port on selonoid against battery minus
and
b) Voltage from the big right port on selonoid going to starter against battery minus
If you have no voltage on either, I'd say it's mechanical problem, starter has problem disengaging
if you have voltage at test a), then it's no wonder the starter still spins and we have to check what's wrong with yopur cabling
if you have voltage at test b) but not a) I need to check if there's a possibility your starter has turned into an alternator from being spun by flywheel or whatever could be the cause for this
In any case, test and come back.
at the same time report every single cable that is connected to:
- 'S' port of selonoid. how many cables and where do they go to. It should only be one going to neutral saftety switch (if you have auto), or ignition switch directly (if manual)
- 'I' port of Solonoid. Should be max one cable. if there is one, it should go to coil+
- starter side of selonoid (right hand side). only one cable going to starter, nothing else.
come back with the results and we see from there.
07-28-2009, 10:02 AM
#4
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 6,417
actually that's a good thought. if switching the key into off position doesn't help either it's 100% electrical issue -- miswiring. what I'm wondering about then is that this doesn't happen during normal drive at any stage
07-28-2009, 06:42 PM
#6
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 16
Thanks Kalli,
I ran the tests you mentioed and here are my results:
--No voltage between "S" and neg when key is in ignition position.
--8.5 volts between "S" and neg when key is in start position.
--Once the engine was running (and the starter didn't bind) there was no voltage between "S" and neg.
--When the starter did spin out of control there were 32 volts between "S" and neg.
--While this was happening, there was 12volts on the starter side of the solenoid even though the key was not in the start position. It was just in the "on" position.
The starter side of the solenoid has only the starter cable and nothing else.
The "I" terminal has a brown wire that goes to the firewall and then (according to my schematics) back to the coil. It also has a red wire going to the electric choke.
The "S" terminal has only a red wire with a blue stripe which goes to the neutral safety.
The battery side of the solenoid is used as a terminal post for the battery cable, a black wire which powers the convertible top, a red wire that the schematics say goes to the ammeter, and a black wire and a yellow wire that are bound together in the same connector. I can't tell where those two go. They appear to go toward the voltage regulator, but if they do, they must change color somewhere between the two.
So. Does any of this make any sense to you? Thank you so much for your help. --Kyle
I ran the tests you mentioed and here are my results:
--No voltage between "S" and neg when key is in ignition position.
--8.5 volts between "S" and neg when key is in start position.
--Once the engine was running (and the starter didn't bind) there was no voltage between "S" and neg.
--When the starter did spin out of control there were 32 volts between "S" and neg.
--While this was happening, there was 12volts on the starter side of the solenoid even though the key was not in the start position. It was just in the "on" position.
The starter side of the solenoid has only the starter cable and nothing else.
The "I" terminal has a brown wire that goes to the firewall and then (according to my schematics) back to the coil. It also has a red wire going to the electric choke.
The "S" terminal has only a red wire with a blue stripe which goes to the neutral safety.
The battery side of the solenoid is used as a terminal post for the battery cable, a black wire which powers the convertible top, a red wire that the schematics say goes to the ammeter, and a black wire and a yellow wire that are bound together in the same connector. I can't tell where those two go. They appear to go toward the voltage regulator, but if they do, they must change color somewhere between the two.
So. Does any of this make any sense to you? Thank you so much for your help. --Kyle
07-29-2009, 05:59 AM
#7
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 6,417
: When the starter did spin out of control there were 32 volts between "S" and neg.
this is your problem, but what causes it I have no idea. 32V is HUGE and will cause the starter to spin as well as well might cause all sorts of havoc.
this 32V there will cause I port passing 12V (or more?) to coil, keeping ignition alive
as well keep the starter spinning.
Does any of the above change when you flick the key into 'off' position?
can you do another test?
disconnect everthing from the 'S' port of the starter relay. and instead of using the ignition switch to start the car, do the following:
have ignition key at 'ignition on' and then use a flat screwdriver to bridge the following 2 connections to start: the battery side of selonoid (far left) and the 'S' port of the starter selonoid. baslically hold the screwdriver there to connect those to together, as soon as car starts remove the screwdriver.
If this causes the problem to not happen, then we can safely say it is the wiring to your 'S' port which is a problem and can keep troubleshooting or rewiring this.
this is what I assume to be the problem for the moment
PS: to save your starter, you can do all those tests with the starter disconnected at the starter selonoid (right side). If you measure 12V on the port this means the starter would turn at the moment (if it were connected).
This way you can check if the same issue arises with the starter disconnected as well.
kalli
this is your problem, but what causes it I have no idea. 32V is HUGE and will cause the starter to spin as well as well might cause all sorts of havoc.
this 32V there will cause I port passing 12V (or more?) to coil, keeping ignition alive
as well keep the starter spinning.
Does any of the above change when you flick the key into 'off' position?
can you do another test?
disconnect everthing from the 'S' port of the starter relay. and instead of using the ignition switch to start the car, do the following:
have ignition key at 'ignition on' and then use a flat screwdriver to bridge the following 2 connections to start: the battery side of selonoid (far left) and the 'S' port of the starter selonoid. baslically hold the screwdriver there to connect those to together, as soon as car starts remove the screwdriver.
If this causes the problem to not happen, then we can safely say it is the wiring to your 'S' port which is a problem and can keep troubleshooting or rewiring this.
this is what I assume to be the problem for the moment
PS: to save your starter, you can do all those tests with the starter disconnected at the starter selonoid (right side). If you measure 12V on the port this means the starter would turn at the moment (if it were connected).
This way you can check if the same issue arises with the starter disconnected as well.
kalli
Last edited by kalli; 07-29-2009 at 06:01 AM.
07-29-2009, 09:27 AM
#8
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 16
Again, thank you, Kalli for your help. I won't be able to do the new tests until tomorrow but I will let you know what I find out then. As to the other question you asked, when the starter is spinning out of control, turning the key off and removing it doesn't do anything. It just keeps on spinning. The only thing that stops it is diconnecting the battery.
Erin go bragh, --Kyle
Erin go bragh, --Kyle
07-29-2009, 10:50 AM
#9
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 6,417
Erin ... :-) i'm actually German, just living here. Love it though
the good news is i was thinking that the starter would turn into alt and causing high voltage doesn't seem to be the case since you measured 12V at starter during when it happens but those very high 36. From what I know your problem should be electrical only.
Let us know how you get on with the 'start your car with the screwdriver' test.
the good news is i was thinking that the starter would turn into alt and causing high voltage doesn't seem to be the case since you measured 12V at starter during when it happens but those very high 36. From what I know your problem should be electrical only.
Let us know how you get on with the 'start your car with the screwdriver' test.
07-29-2009, 11:34 AM
#10
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Parkesburg,Pa
Posts: 45
i think I'd try going back to when the problem started. After you changed out the old starter and ran a new wire? Check that new wire to make sure it's not hitting anything it shouldn't be. Make sure it's connected tightly and properly.