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New Coyote engine in 1971 Mach 1??

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Old 01-17-2011, 01:04 PM   #1
Bosko
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Question New Coyote engine in 1971 Mach 1??

I am new to this forum, so please excuse me if this has been a thread subject before.

I am in process of rebuilding a 1971 Mach 1 with a 351C and C4. My original plan was to stroke and bore the engine, and add aluminum intake and heads from Edelbrock, a 750 cfm 4bbl, and a more aggressive cam. Of course, roller timing gear, roller rockers, solid state ignition, etc. The goal is to get 500 hp+.

Now I am reading articles about the 2011 Coyote 5.0 litre, which pumps out about 415 hp out of the box. The kicker is the Coyote with the required ECM from Ford Racing will be about the same price as a quality rebuild of my 351C.

So now I am conflicted - rebuild the 351C, or buy a new modern engine that puts out bit less hp than my target, but would have modern technology and reliability.

Has anyone else considered the Coyote swap, or actually done one? Thoughts and experiences to help me make up my mind are appreciated!

Bosko
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:38 PM   #2
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You'll have to consider a new transmission and a custom drive shaft (get the power from the new tranny to the old 71 diff). Most likely custom motor mounts or custom mounting point (if you take 5.0 L motor mounts and fit them to the bay of the 71).

That is what I know. Other info that might be needed...

If you're using the ECM from a 2011 you'll have to figure out how the fuel map will be affected (if at all) by the absence of ABS/Traction Control/Electric Steering, etc since the 2011 manipulates the fuel map based on input from those system. I'm not certain of this part since I haven't heard of swap yet but Lethal Performance (site sponser) can probably give you more insight.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:47 PM   #3
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Um.....no, it won't cost remotely the same.

It will be neither cheap nor easy. It will require a great deal of front end modification to get a Coyote to fit, converting the entire front suspension, compromising handling etc, sheet metal fabrication and so forth.

Then you can get the engine and ECM, but you'll need a wiring harness. It's not setup for older cars, so you'll have sensors disconnected, constant engine codes in the ECM, and it will require work and money to get it to run right. Plus yeah, mating/fitting a transmission to it, which may require more sheetmetal fabbing of the trans tunnel to get the driveline angle right, plus a custom driveshaft.

Then there's going to be all the nickel and diming you ALWAYS run into on [projects like this. This hzs to be moved, that has to be resized, gotta change such and such.

I'd be amazed if you could swap a Coyote into that car and get the same power as rebuilding what you have for 2x as much money. In all likelihood it will cost more, 3x as much or higher. Rebuilding what you have into something healthy and getting it running with good power is going to be WAY cheaper.
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:51 PM   #4
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I agree with all of the above, but it is a badass motor and for not that much money. I saw it in the catalog and couldn't believe it.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:06 PM   #5
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Great comments guys! Let's keep the debate going.

I agree about the transmission. If get the Coyote engine the I would also try to install the new 6R80 automatic transmission. it is smaller and lighter than the C4.

The ECM from Ford Racing is for custom installations. It will not work in the 2011 Mustang. Comes complete with wiring harnbess. I think this alleviates one concern in that the ECM should not require minimal custom wiring, and has everything it needs to not be continuously generating engine codes.

The installation of the engine will be a challenge. Engine and tranny mounts I think I can work through, but cooling, power steering, alternator, and air conditioning will be challenging to say the least (yeah, I said air conditioning. This is Texas, and I do want to drive the car).
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:25 PM   #6
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I think you'll have to get rid of the shock towers to get the new 5.0 to fit.
The 2009 4.6L won't even fit, the heads are too wide. The 5.0 has to be about the same width (or maybe bigger).
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:04 PM   #7
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how much u looking to spend, how handy are you, can u fabricate? if not, wait till a kit comes out. Im sure there are plenty of teams putting together the things youll need. Or if you are a rockerfeller, get R done
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Old 01-17-2011, 09:05 PM   #8
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So you can get one of those engines for less than $6k? You dont really need aluminum heads on a Cleveland, the 4V heads work good, and a 408 ci stroker kit would really make them breathe. One thing you can do with them is fill in the dead spot on the intake port floor, no need to port them. 500hp isnt that hard with a Cleveland. Believe me, the Cleveland will make silly power with stock parts, mostly a cam swap, intake and exhaust and you are good to go. Rebuild the bottom end with good pieces and it will live a long time.

This is what you have to do to get a mod motor in any Mustang 64-73. Figure another $5k-$10k depending on how much of it you can do yourself.
Click the image to open in full size.


After just getting it in there you still need to do all the wiring, transmission, exhaust, and accessories. Good luck. In my honest opinion it isnt worth the effort and expense to put a mod motor in one of these cars. The cost is too high for the paltry amount of power you get from them. It may seem like a lot of power, but really it isnt that much for the money you are going to spend on it. You can put EFI and a blower on a 351C for less money.

If you want to spend the kind of money you are talking about, why not just get a 460 block, stroke it to 500+ci and slap some Boss9 heads on it? It would make scads more power, be really freakin cool, and would still probably be cheaper than stuffing a mod motor in, despite the heads being $5k on their own. The best part about a 460 block is you can use factory mounts and stuff to put it in there.

But hey its your $20k if you want to spend it.
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Old 01-17-2011, 11:04 PM   #9
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I would not buy a brand new engine from anyone i would wait 5 years let them work the bugs out of it.If it was me i would build up what you have if I'm replacing it would be a efi 351w or a big block.I use to be a ford tech you don't want to work on a mod motor most cars you gotta pull the engine to get a head off its a pain.A normal small block and big block you can pull the heads with it in the car in a few hours.Thumpin the boss9 heads would take notching or removing the shock towers to fit.The p51 heads are a step above the scj heads and fit just fine.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:38 AM   #10
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We are a new sponsor to the forum. Recently, we are seeing more mod motors going into classic Mustangs. Total Cost Involved apparently has a setup for exactly this. Check them out and see if they have any experience on the cost factor.

As for the tranny, check out our new product - the KEISLER Rallye Sport RS 5-Speed. We have complete PerfectFit kits for classic Mustang '64-1/2 through '73 for use with all small blocks, Cleveland, FE, 381 series, and all mod motor variants 4.6/5.0/5.4, etc. Here is the kit for automatic equipped cars. You can use the factory mechanical linkage, or our hydraulic clutch actuator. Additionally, you can use aftermarket cable clutch actuators.

For the Coyote 5.0 I recommend running the 500 torque RS500 for $2595 complete with driveshaft. For a regular 4.6 mod motor '96-up, 289/302/347 you are fine with our RS400 for $2295 complete with driveshaft. We also have bare units starting at $1499 for the RS400.

If you run automatics, we have 4R70W and AODE, complete with fully preprogrammed standalone tranny controllers and harnesses. Our Simple Shift Controller allows you to make adjustments right on the controller box. The standard controller has Sport and Normal dual mode switch, standard no extra cost. Both controllers are available with our Paddle Shifter w/ Intellegent Display (wireless, easy hookup). And if you run a EFI system like FAST, you can display your engine data on the display as well.

With the push for better driveability, less weight and more power:weight ratio, it's easy to understand why you'd want a late model engine. Please post what ever you find on here for all of us to see.

Thanks!

Shafi Keisler
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Old 01-18-2011, 10:19 PM   #11
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I can't thank you guys enough! You have brought up some very good points to consider.

I was shocked by the photo and comments from Thumpin455 above, and not that I doubt him, I did a little research tonight. A stock 351C is roughly 29 x 25.5 x 27.5. Dimensions are in inches, and length x width x height. Weight is about 550lbs.

An older 302 is 29 x 24 x 27.5, and weighs in about 460 lbs.

A newer 4.6L is 36 x 36 x 44, and weighs in at about 600 lbs. It appears that the Coyote may be just a couple of inches shorter in length, and weighs in at about 450 lbs. I am still looking for good reliable data on the dimensions.

So yes, it appears that quite a bit of slicing and dicing will need to be done to squeeze in a Coyote. I'll head out to the car in the next day or two with a tape measure, I'll let y'all know what I find.

Check out this thread where details of a Coyote swap into a 66 Mustang are detailed. That engine really fills the spaces under the hood, but looks cool as hell!
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Old 01-18-2011, 10:57 PM   #12
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it would be an ambitious attempt to say the least, so you would have to ask yourself why are you doing this, are you after the performance and reliability of a new power train in the classic vintage look of a first gen mustang? if so, then you could do what I have seen the crew of West Coast Custom's do for Tanner Foust, they dropped a 69 GTO body on a 2006 underpinnings, Google "Rockstar GTO" of course like someone already suggested you may need to wait a couple years to find a salvaged one or something
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:05 AM   #13
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I hate to say it but that rockstar gto is a mutt.For the price i could make the 69 faster out handle and out brake the 06 with change left over.The problems with a mod motor swap is using a mustang 2 will cut back the handling and it puts more stress on the front frame rails not the firewall like ford designed.Its the size of a big block but only a 5.0 is kinda sad most stock big blocks will walk on it.Most who do it just do it for the wow effect is all.My friend built a Eleanor with a cobra 4.6 and hates me that my small block is faster.
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Old 01-19-2011, 07:33 AM   #14
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I intend for this car to be capable of being a daily driver. That means good reliability and safety. My plan is to upgrade to four wheel power disk brakes, coil over suspension up front, overdrive transmission, and retain the power steering and air conditioning. I was looking at the new Coyote mostly for the reliability and economy, but I can burn a lot of gas in a hopped up 351C for the money and time I would have to spend getting the Coyote integrated and working.

Performance wise, I don't think there will be a big difference between the Coyote and 351C. I can probably get a few more hp out of the 351, but the Coyote weighs a hundred pounds less. Aluminum intake and heads on the 351 will close that gap, but not completely. And, in theory, a stroked 351 should deliver more torque at lower rpm's than the Coyote.
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:28 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosko View Post
A newer 4.6L is 36 x 36 x 44, and weighs in at about 600 lbs. It appears that the Coyote may be just a couple of inches shorter in length, and weighs in at about 450 lbs. I am still looking for good reliable data on the dimensions.
The 4.6 Terminator is 28" long, 30" high and 30" wide (from the Ford Racing Parts catalog).

I don't think you have to worry about structural issues with an M2 (marketing hype by FatMan) and unless you are going to road race your car, handling probably will not be an issue. It probably will handle better than it does now since you'll have rack and pinion steering and all new components. But I would think you should be able to trim the shock towers to get a 4.6 or 5.0 Coyote in there. Guys have done it in 67-70s. Lots of info on mod conversions here: http://www.modularfords.com/forums/f...ar-Conversions

If your goal is a 'capable daily driver' or, like mine, a capable weekend cruiser, the 5.0 Coyote (if you have skills, money, time, etc.) is probably a better pick all around (except perhaps for money). You'll have great performance, much better gas mileage than a 351C of comparable power (probably as much as 50% better mileage), a much more streetable ride (will idle like a kitten and have torque where you need it). And with a few bolts ons (like a supercharger) will probably make more reliable streetable power than the 351C. (And you'll have a 12/12 warranty if you buy the crate motor.)

The 5.0 in the Mustang rates at 412 HP but with just a tune and headers they pick up about 50 HP. Granted, the new Mustang has suspension and tires our old Mustangs could only dream of, but a 12.7 second car, right off the showroom, is faster than just about any factory ride from 'back in the day'. That says something for the engine in that beast.

But in the end it's what you want for you car. The 351C would be a lot easier and get you on the road faster.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:16 AM   #16
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Or you could just build a 347 stroker, make 450-500hp at the crank, and it fights right in since it's a 302 block. And you'll save thousands and thousands of dollars. And it will have plenty of drivability and decent mileage.

And on the issue of drivability, what is all this nonsense about "late model" engines having better drivability? It's all in the engine package and tune, it has nothing to do with whether it's an engine built in the last 5 years or not. Performance engines sacrifice mileage and drivability, regardless of year, it's always a compromise based on physics(airflow and vaporization points don't care when your engine was built). There's no reason you can't build a stroker with excellent drivability and a ton of power.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:46 AM   #17
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There is alot of talk about cutting the shock towers. But the 71-73 engine bay was made bigger to fit the 429. Its possible the little to no cutting will be need to the towers. The tunnel on the other hand is a different story.
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Old 01-19-2011, 12:06 PM   #18
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And on the issue of drivability, what is all this nonsense about "late model" engines having better drivability? It's all in the engine package and tune, it has nothing to do with whether it's an engine built in the last 5 years or not.
Yes and no.

Some things haven't changed much - block, squish, piston contours, etc.

Others have, like valve angles being straightened up and four valves/cylinder.

There is drivability improvement to be had relative to specific peak power/torque output by cam phasing (both relative between all valves and the crank and between the intake and exhaust valves). The closest things to this in the pushrod engine world would be the "Vari-cam" arrangement that was around in the 1960's and the cam-in-cam arrangement as used in the last year or so of the Vipers. I strongly doubt that there is any comparable aftermarket offering that combines both.


BTW, the aluminum 3-valve 4.6L motor weighs in at around 430 lbs. In iron as in the SN95 cars it would be quite a bit heavier. Dimensions of most Ford engines can be found in the FRPP catalogs.


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Old 01-19-2011, 01:33 PM   #19
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And on the issue of drivability, what is all this nonsense about "late model" engines having better drivability? It's all in the engine package and tune, it has nothing to do with whether it's an engine built in the last 5 years or not. Performance engines sacrifice mileage and drivability, regardless of year, it's always a compromise based on physics(airflow and vaporization points don't care when your engine was built). There's no reason you can't build a stroker with excellent drivability and a ton of power.
By driveability, I mean even a 347 making 500 HP is going to have a pretty lumpy cam and high-flow heads, which means less low-end torque, which makes the car less enjoyable to drive around town. I had a Chebby with a built 283 'back in the day' with the Z28 off road cam (.493/.512 lift, 257/269 duration) and that thing was a pain to drive. It made lots of high-end power (shifted at 7K, 5.57 gears, dual quads) but around town I had to downshift all the time to get enough torque to get out of my own way.

As Norm Peterson said, variable cam timing allows the ECM to change the closing and opening points of intake and exhaust valves (indepently) based on the load, RPM, etc. Thus, with the 5.0 motor, you get the advantage of a long duration cam (at high RPM) and the streetability of a stock cam for good low-end torque, smooth idle, fuel economy, and emissions. With a SBF you have a cam that is designed for torque or high-RPM power, or a compromise between the two. With ViCT, you have all the above (which is precisely why they can get 412 net HP and 390 lb torque [120 lb more than the 93 Cobra 5.0] and still get 26 MPG in a car that weighs about 600 lbs more than our old Mustangs).
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:34 PM   #20
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Again, it gets back to engine configuration. Newer engine designs allow you to have drivability and a bit more power or the same power and a bit more drivability, ie you don't have to sacrifice as much. But even on non variable timing pushrod engines, modern designed custom cams and heads etc have closed the gap up quite a bit in performance differences while retaining drivability.

In the end though, drivability problems are related to poor tuning, or an engine that's not configured for it. If you even look at the new engines with variable cam timing....once the modding starts for power, drivability starts to diminish. A cammed 3V 4.6L for example is going to lose drivability to gain power.

But in the end it gets back to money. It's MUCH cheaper to get a pushrod engine to produce large power and retain drivability(the main reason they still dominate the performance arena) than it is to do the same with a more modern engine. Sure, a new 5.0 Coyote can make the same power and have slightly better drivability, but is an extra 1-2mpg and running slightly smoother worth the tons of extra money it costs? It's WAAAYYYY past the point of diminishing returns. For a car that comes with a modern engine in it, that's great and you're already ahead....but the tremendous cost involved in swapping a modern engine into an older car doesn't even come close to making up for it in terms of performance.

My main point though, is people tend to bring up the drivability issue, like somehow an older engine design can't make power without having **** poor drivability, or being undrivable altogether....which is an old school and ignorant mentality. It's simply not true. Most modern cars have excellent drivability primarily from a bunch of gearing and tons of ignition timing. And that has virtually nothing to do with the engine(other than it's ability to tolerate timing).

The question to be asked is "Is the benefit of running a modern engine in an older car worth the cost involved?" The answer is always "No." Sure, it has a cool factor, and a neat factor, but in the end the guys who spent half as much money are going to be twice as fast with the same drivability, AND have an engine they can work on....which is something else to consider, MOD engines are highly complex, difficult to work on and require additional specialized knowledge and tools, neither of which most people have.

I just don't like seeing people spend $20,000 on a car to get the same outcome that could have gotten for less than half of that, because they thought it was the only way(usually because that's what someone else told them).
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:34 PM
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