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Old 11-10-2013, 06:13 AM   #11
kenash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioTed View Post
The particles are not like the "fuzz" which shows up on magnetic drain plugs, but more like what is created when you file metal (bad).

When the cam and lifters got torn up first time around I asked Edelbrock about the need for break-in springs. They said "no".

Sure wish we would have rebuilt the second time around with a roller cam, but Edelbrock performed the work, so . . .
Bud, I'm thinking your cam is "wiped" to some degree. It's for conditions like this, I chucked the cam and lifters and converted to a full roller set up.
Have to ask, when you broke in the cam, did you run it up to 2K-2500 Rs and cycle the engine? My condolences.
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Old 11-29-2013, 06:19 PM   #12
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Think I may have found the problem, guys. I tested all lifters per Gun Jam's instructions and found six of them to be "squishy". Should have done so before now, but have been tied up at work and on another project car.

Thanks so much for all your advice and input. I'm going to report this to Edelbrock and see how they respond. Hopefully we're just a new set of lifters away from resolution.

I'll keep you posted.
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Old 11-29-2013, 07:38 PM   #13
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6!?

did you check them after you ran the car or did it sit for sometime? Its not uncommon for lifters to bleed out a bit when the sit and are new. But if you checked them after running the engine for a bit and immediately pulled the cover and found 6 bad ones. I would suspect over preload or some other type of extreme pressure cracked the oil metering disc inside the lifter and caused the check valve to jam up and leak.

If you checked them right after it was run and 6 were squishy...its a rare chance that they simply need more time to seal up well. I had a few lifters that over time would bleed down but that went away after a few 100 to 1k miles but they would stay fully pumped up for at least 10 min. Its more likely they are collapsed.

Here is a really cool article on it. Look at the material that oil metering disc is made from. See if you can find any of those pieces in your oil filter or magnet or oil pan...they will be very tiny but easy to recognize.

http://mustangforums.com/forum/class...-going-on.html

Good luck

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Old 11-29-2013, 08:18 PM   #14
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Here's a rundown of what took place leading up to identification of six "squishy" lifters. Note, this all took place after running the engine for about 15 minutes and getting it up to temperature.

We removed the intake today, pulled all the lifters, and inspected them and the cam. Good news is that the bottoms of the lifters are perfect. Not a mark on them. The cam lobes appear good too. No scoring. We also confirmed the rollers on the rockers are operating nicely centered on the valve tops.

Next, we measured the lift on each cam lobe. Two things stuck out, here. First the cam card which came with the Edelbrock Power Package I purchased and installed the first time around lists the Lift at Cam on the Exhaust side at .325 and the Intake side at .310. However, they actually measure out at .246 on the Exhaust and .265 on the Intake.

These numbers are consistent except on three lobes. Two of the Exhaust are .265, and one of the Intake is .246 - exactly opposite of what the other Exhaust & Intake lobes are. I know this sounds odd, but I measured every one with a dial indicator, and checked the three anomalies three-times each. Measurement was performed by installing the lifters and pushrods, securing the dial indicator on top of each pushrod, one at a time, then rotating the cam through its lift.

Then we started testing each lifter to assure they are working properly. One by one we reinstalled the rockers, set preload on them and carefully observed the tops of the lifters to assure that the preload was transferring properly to them. The first few checked out ok, but then we started finding lifters which were not firm. Their tops were collapsing under just the slightest pressure. In the end, six lifters were found to collapse in this way.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:07 PM   #15
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When I got my lifters new in the box some would collapse and others were firm. They really need to be checked directly after shutting down the engine.... within 10 min.

If possible find a collapsed one and see if you can disassemble it. If its not a linkbar roller lifter (which its not) You should be able to easily pull the lifter out of the bore, pull the snap ring on the top, slide out the piston, the oil metering disc and visually inspect the check plate for blockages.

Thats what I would do now.

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Old 11-30-2013, 08:02 PM   #16
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Well, it's just like you said, GJ. Was at Summit today picking up some other stuff and had them pull six new lifters off the shelf. Checked each one and found several which collapsed easily.

So now I'm back at square one. I just can't find anything wrong with this motor! Makes me wonder if there is actually any problem at all. It's just that sound! Other posters have suggested roller rockers sound like a bunch of sewing machines. To me, it sounds like there is no oil in the engine, or it's got a bunch of bad lifters, or it's a diesel!

Is it possible this is typical? If so, I'll give up some horsepower and go back to non-roller rockers. I'd rather have a decent-sounding engine rather than one that always sounds like it's in need of maintenance.

So what's the consensus? Given that I can't find anything wrong, is this just the way a roller-rocker equipped engine sounds?
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Old 12-01-2013, 03:31 AM   #17
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lifters with no oil are fairly easy to collapse, i wouldn't worry about it.

there should be no metal in a properly cleaned newly assembled engine.

metal paste is a very bad sign, it means it has been getting pulverized in your engine.

if it sticks to a mAGNET IT IS METAL OBVIOUSLY BUT IF IT DOES NOT IT IS BEARING MATERIAL.

one helpful thing to do is take a cell phone video of the noise with the hood open moving from one fender to the other. put it on youtube.com or similar, post the link to it here.

if the lifters are comp cams they are likely the problem.

roller rockers might make a mild uniform sewing machine noise but not as loud as a solid lifter cam.
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Old 12-02-2013, 05:41 PM   #18
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GJ - forgot to mention, I attempted to disassemble lifters as you described. Excellent post by the way. However, unable to get these Edelbrock-brand lifters apart. They do not utilize a conventional snap ring. Instead, pistons are held in place by malleable washers. I could dig them out, but lifters would be unusable afterwards. I'll wait out to see what Edelbrock has to say. No response, yet.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:19 PM   #19
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Flat tappet cams should be using high zinc/phosphorus oils or additives.
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:23 PM   #20
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I used valvoline VR1 10-30w when I had my flat tappet valve train. The top of the tappets looked great a mirror finish no pits. Now that I have a roller valve train I still use VR1 10-30 I figured what the hell.

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Old 12-03-2013, 10:23 PM
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