Upgrade GT Coyote to spank Camaro SS-1LE
02-27-2013, 11:44 AM
#21
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Well there's the rub, and the issue I personally have when someone claims a fast road course lap time in a car that doesn't have a stock engine..... because power does matter.
But the Mustang has about equal to a bit more power to start with (and a lot more in a GT500), and less weight but still isn't as quick. That's because there are two ways to make a car faster. Pure power, and handling. I like power as much as anyone, but what is the line that Pirelli uses, "Power is nothing without control". Better control is how the Camaro is quicker, in 1LE guise anyway).
The good news is you need not add $5k worth of parts to improve an S197 a metric-ton. $1500-2000 will work WONDERS.
But the Mustang has about equal to a bit more power to start with (and a lot more in a GT500), and less weight but still isn't as quick. That's because there are two ways to make a car faster. Pure power, and handling. I like power as much as anyone, but what is the line that Pirelli uses, "Power is nothing without control". Better control is how the Camaro is quicker, in 1LE guise anyway).
The good news is you need not add $5k worth of parts to improve an S197 a metric-ton. $1500-2000 will work WONDERS.
02-27-2013, 12:45 PM
#22
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I'm sorry but I don't agree that a blower alone will make the mustang track faster than the camaro.
That blower will help only in the straights and power wasn't the car's problem. That blower adds weight which worsens the balance even more. It also will significantly magnify the cars original deficiencies. Sure the mustang may be faster the first couple laps but then the brakes will fade and those skinny tires will have that nose heavy car sliding and wobbling all over the place.
Did anyone read the comparison of the GT500 to the ZL1??? They still liked the camaro despite its significant power disadvantage. Why?? Cause over several laps the brakes went away and the car lacked control and control builds confidence and confidence improves laps times.
Seriously, a blower isn't going to fix a handling and braking issue.
That blower will help only in the straights and power wasn't the car's problem. That blower adds weight which worsens the balance even more. It also will significantly magnify the cars original deficiencies. Sure the mustang may be faster the first couple laps but then the brakes will fade and those skinny tires will have that nose heavy car sliding and wobbling all over the place.
Did anyone read the comparison of the GT500 to the ZL1??? They still liked the camaro despite its significant power disadvantage. Why?? Cause over several laps the brakes went away and the car lacked control and control builds confidence and confidence improves laps times.
Seriously, a blower isn't going to fix a handling and braking issue.
02-27-2013, 12:51 PM
#23
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I'm sorry but I don't agree that a blower alone will make the mustang track faster than the camaro.
That blower will help only in the straights and power wasn't the car's problem. That blower adds weight which worsens the balance even more. It also will significantly magnify the cars original deficiencies. Sure the mustang may be faster the first couple laps but then the brakes will fade and those skinny tires will have that nose heavy car sliding and wobbling all over the place.
Did anyone read the comparison of the GT500 to the ZL1??? They still liked the camaro despite its significant power disadvantage. Why?? Cause over several laps the brakes went away and the car lacked control and control builds confidence and confidence improves laps times.
Seriously, a blower isn't going to fix a handling and braking issue.
That blower will help only in the straights and power wasn't the car's problem. That blower adds weight which worsens the balance even more. It also will significantly magnify the cars original deficiencies. Sure the mustang may be faster the first couple laps but then the brakes will fade and those skinny tires will have that nose heavy car sliding and wobbling all over the place.
Did anyone read the comparison of the GT500 to the ZL1??? They still liked the camaro despite its significant power disadvantage. Why?? Cause over several laps the brakes went away and the car lacked control and control builds confidence and confidence improves laps times.
Seriously, a blower isn't going to fix a handling and braking issue.
02-27-2013, 05:53 PM
#24
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Might it be that I wasn't completely understood? If you take a car that handles ok, and you have a track you can use some power, then more power will make the car faster.
Case in point, I my FR-S was a LOT slower on my local track than my (then) Camaro, and both are setup by the same guy (me) and have the same kind of balance and grip. Does that means the Camaro is the better handling car? Ahhhhh, no. It means the Camaro had more power and was running 25 mph faster down the 2 straights on a course that I was lapping in a little more than 1:05 on.
FWIW, as much as some hate this it's one reason I like autocrossing as a handling test over a road course because he with more power can't just win the drag race. That's all I was saying.
I've pushed faster cars through corners only to have them get away on straights... and then I almost run them over the next time we get to twisty stuff. That only happens because of horsepower. If they and I had equal power, then they wouldn't run the laps they run. So when you guys see claims of "this car ran this lap time", it's ok... but power is a part of it and if said car is not similar to your car on the power and weight side then it's not really indicative of how well it handles vs. how fast it is in a straight line.
I'll give you another. I had a C6 Z06, I traded it on a C6 Grand Sport. You better believe the Z06 was the faster track car (lighter, more power and all). But the GS is the faster AX car (which is my thing personally). It's heavier and actually a little softer but it handles just as well and is less upset by bumps. It's geared better for AX, but that advantage dies on a big road course. Now, do you guys think I sold the one for the other to go slower????????? Nope, and for what I do, which is all about turning, it's not slower but on a track it is.
I'm not saying "more power makes everything better". I'm saying more power can help a car that can use it, even a little bit, run a faster lap time. The GT500 is a super strong powered car, but it's got stock tuning that's not nearly as good. But for a lap it's kinda close to a 1LE... then it goes to hell. That's indicative of the power keeping it that close because when the rest can't handle it the time ballooned way up. Make the Mustang work better and you bet your *** you can use more of that power.
More to the point if you took 2 S197's, tweaked them, and got them to drive identically (say a GT and a GT with a blower) in terms of balance. Don't you think the GT500 will eventually run away? Sure it will not because it handles better, but because it has more power.
Case in point, I my FR-S was a LOT slower on my local track than my (then) Camaro, and both are setup by the same guy (me) and have the same kind of balance and grip. Does that means the Camaro is the better handling car? Ahhhhh, no. It means the Camaro had more power and was running 25 mph faster down the 2 straights on a course that I was lapping in a little more than 1:05 on.
FWIW, as much as some hate this it's one reason I like autocrossing as a handling test over a road course because he with more power can't just win the drag race. That's all I was saying.
I've pushed faster cars through corners only to have them get away on straights... and then I almost run them over the next time we get to twisty stuff. That only happens because of horsepower. If they and I had equal power, then they wouldn't run the laps they run. So when you guys see claims of "this car ran this lap time", it's ok... but power is a part of it and if said car is not similar to your car on the power and weight side then it's not really indicative of how well it handles vs. how fast it is in a straight line.
I'll give you another. I had a C6 Z06, I traded it on a C6 Grand Sport. You better believe the Z06 was the faster track car (lighter, more power and all). But the GS is the faster AX car (which is my thing personally). It's heavier and actually a little softer but it handles just as well and is less upset by bumps. It's geared better for AX, but that advantage dies on a big road course. Now, do you guys think I sold the one for the other to go slower????????? Nope, and for what I do, which is all about turning, it's not slower but on a track it is.
I'm not saying "more power makes everything better". I'm saying more power can help a car that can use it, even a little bit, run a faster lap time. The GT500 is a super strong powered car, but it's got stock tuning that's not nearly as good. But for a lap it's kinda close to a 1LE... then it goes to hell. That's indicative of the power keeping it that close because when the rest can't handle it the time ballooned way up. Make the Mustang work better and you bet your *** you can use more of that power.
More to the point if you took 2 S197's, tweaked them, and got them to drive identically (say a GT and a GT with a blower) in terms of balance. Don't you think the GT500 will eventually run away? Sure it will not because it handles better, but because it has more power.
Last edited by Sam Strano; 02-27-2013 at 05:59 PM.
02-27-2013, 07:51 PM
#25
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Sam, your points come across loud and clear. I'm just not agreeing with tigercrazy's comment that more power alone guarantees a faster lap time than the camaro.
I understand that with more power the mustang will gain time on the straights. I care more about consistent lap times. Sure the blown mustang will do well for the first few laps and then the brakes will fade and worsen at a faster rate than if the mustang didn't have the extra power and weight from the blower. The tires, which already lack grip compared to the sticky camaros, will have more trouble with useable grip and heat up quicker and wear faster.
The article tried to indicate which car was the better track day car. To me that is a car that can do HPDE with four 20-30 minute lapping sessions, not just which car has the fastest first 3 laps.
I understand that with more power the mustang will gain time on the straights. I care more about consistent lap times. Sure the blown mustang will do well for the first few laps and then the brakes will fade and worsen at a faster rate than if the mustang didn't have the extra power and weight from the blower. The tires, which already lack grip compared to the sticky camaros, will have more trouble with useable grip and heat up quicker and wear faster.
The article tried to indicate which car was the better track day car. To me that is a car that can do HPDE with four 20-30 minute lapping sessions, not just which car has the fastest first 3 laps.
02-27-2013, 08:14 PM
#26
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Sam, your points come across loud and clear. I'm just not agreeing with tigercrazy's comment that more power alone guarantees a faster lap time than the camaro.
I understand that with more power the mustang will gain time on the straights. I care more about consistent lap times. Sure the blown mustang will do well for the first few laps and then the brakes will fade and worsen at a faster rate than if the mustang didn't have the extra power and weight from the blower. The tires, which already lack grip compared to the sticky camaros, will have more trouble with useable grip and heat up quicker and wear faster.
The article tried to indicate which car was the better track day car. To me that is a car that can do HPDE with four 20-30 minute lapping sessions, not just which car has the fastest first 3 laps.
I understand that with more power the mustang will gain time on the straights. I care more about consistent lap times. Sure the blown mustang will do well for the first few laps and then the brakes will fade and worsen at a faster rate than if the mustang didn't have the extra power and weight from the blower. The tires, which already lack grip compared to the sticky camaros, will have more trouble with useable grip and heat up quicker and wear faster.
The article tried to indicate which car was the better track day car. To me that is a car that can do HPDE with four 20-30 minute lapping sessions, not just which car has the fastest first 3 laps.
02-28-2013, 01:16 PM
#28
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: AZ
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http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...2/viewall.html
Didn't go through the entire thread but Ford did have the Boss pitted against the 1LE, a little google is so easy to find stuff
Didn't go through the entire thread but Ford did have the Boss pitted against the 1LE, a little google is so easy to find stuff
02-28-2013, 06:44 PM
#29
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
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Automobile Magazine doesn't do instrumented tests, so their subjective opinions don't always line up with instrumented comparison tests done by others.
This . . .
still sounds to me like what you'll end up with when you do a significantly staggered tire setup and then try to balance the resulting push with "looser" suspension tuning. Especially with a relatively moderate level of normally aspirated power. Do the tires and suspension all up right the first time, not use both of them to band-aid the shortcomings of the other. Chevy's 1LE team gets it.
Norm
This . . .
Originally Posted by Automobile Magazine
The rear end is quite loose and the front tires will push to the outside of a corner if they aren't coaxed into a turn.
Norm