Fun w/ Numbers - Supercharger vs. V8
04-01-2009, 08:27 PM
#31
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,172
Look man, like I said in an email to you a month back, I appreciate that you back the V6/4.0 platforms. More people need to do so. As for SCCA, I don't know anything about that, I strictly do 1/4.
And you just proved my point. 500rwhp will kill a 4.6 3v. Actually anything after 450rwhp is on borrowed time on the 4.6 3v according to most amusing pump gas.
Case and point, you say crank hp applies. Yet none of the cars in your research has been on an engine dyno, and you add 15% to dyno sheets that you claim are not accurate.
And you just proved my point. 500rwhp will kill a 4.6 3v. Actually anything after 450rwhp is on borrowed time on the 4.6 3v according to most amusing pump gas.
Case and point, you say crank hp applies. Yet none of the cars in your research has been on an engine dyno, and you add 15% to dyno sheets that you claim are not accurate.
Last edited by rygenstormlocke; 04-01-2009 at 08:37 PM.
04-01-2009, 08:59 PM
#32
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Near Wash. DC Posts: 13,541
Posts: 2,497
I haven't modded my v6 up to this point I mention in my "Vehicle:" section.
For the sake of knowledge correct these numbers based on your oppinion:
X-charger intercooled 340 rwhp
Vortech intercooled cams heads full exhhast 400 rwhp
X-charger intercooled cams heads mac filter methanol full exhaust, probably 390 rwhp
PH turbo intercooled 440 rwhp
x-charger 20% more hp/tq under 3500 rpm than vortech
vortech 5% more hp/tq under 3500 rpm than a turbo.
440 RWHP = 11.9 seconds
400 RWHP = 12.5 seconds
340 RWHP = 12.9 seconds
Mustang v8:
Saleen supercharger intercooled, (JDM 500 hp) 422 RWHP
Saleen supercharger intercooled, cammed, full exhaust, intake, 455 RWHP
Vortech S-Trim intercooled full exhaust, 444 RWHP
Turbonetics Turbo intercooled: 467 RWHP
For the sake of knowledge correct these numbers based on your oppinion:
X-charger intercooled 340 rwhp
Vortech intercooled cams heads full exhhast 400 rwhp
X-charger intercooled cams heads mac filter methanol full exhaust, probably 390 rwhp
PH turbo intercooled 440 rwhp
x-charger 20% more hp/tq under 3500 rpm than vortech
vortech 5% more hp/tq under 3500 rpm than a turbo.
440 RWHP = 11.9 seconds
400 RWHP = 12.5 seconds
340 RWHP = 12.9 seconds
Mustang v8:
Saleen supercharger intercooled, (JDM 500 hp) 422 RWHP
Saleen supercharger intercooled, cammed, full exhaust, intake, 455 RWHP
Vortech S-Trim intercooled full exhaust, 444 RWHP
Turbonetics Turbo intercooled: 467 RWHP
04-01-2009, 09:06 PM
#33
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location:
Posts: 170
A lot of tuners commonly believe that dyno conversion is inaccurate, which it is but the mustang is understood by some tuners and seems a big exception to the rule. I've only talked to two top tuners and read two magazine articles which all said the same thing based on testing, but are you sure that the top tuners aren't just using general dyno information instead of actual numbers? very few people outside engine builders use crank dynos which is what we run in top level SCCA racing exclusivly.
Racing is part of the reason I'm familiar with crank numbers and the other is that everyone who buys Saleen stuff seems to use them too. "435 hp kit" "475 hp kit" "500 hp JDM kit" "better than the 500 hp GT500" etc.
I'd argue that numbers like 11s 12s 10s are confusing because they are chassis and driver dependent.
Also I can definitely say that you are wayy off in your numbers for the v8 (ironically i bet there is a paralell here). The v8 will blow in about 20%-30% of cars according to two top tuners at 500 crank hp without any bolt ons. While it can hit 475 RWHP that's a best case scenario longshot. 500 RWHP will blow a 3v engine consistently.
Racing is part of the reason I'm familiar with crank numbers and the other is that everyone who buys Saleen stuff seems to use them too. "435 hp kit" "475 hp kit" "500 hp JDM kit" "better than the 500 hp GT500" etc.
I'd argue that numbers like 11s 12s 10s are confusing because they are chassis and driver dependent.
Also I can definitely say that you are wayy off in your numbers for the v8 (ironically i bet there is a paralell here). The v8 will blow in about 20%-30% of cars according to two top tuners at 500 crank hp without any bolt ons. While it can hit 475 RWHP that's a best case scenario longshot. 500 RWHP will blow a 3v engine consistently.
You would argue (I know funny to expect anything else right?) Of course numbers are driver dependent. Those are REAL numbers ran by REAL drivers.
I am curious I see the Saleen in your pic, is it NA or FI? What kit do you have in it? Have you ever run the car at the drag strip? What does that black beauty ET at?
04-01-2009, 09:17 PM
#34
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location:
Posts: 170
I haven't modded my v6 up to this point I mention in my "Vehicle:" section.
For the sake of knowledge correct these numbers based on your oppinion:
X-charger intercooled 340 rwhp
Vortech intercooled cams heads full exhhast 400 rwhp
X-charger intercooled cams heads mac filter methanol full exhaust, probably 390 rwhp
PH turbo intercooled 440 rwhp
x-charger 20% more hp/tq under 3500 rpm than vortech
vortech 5% more hp/tq under 3500 rpm than a turbo.
440 RWHP = 11.9 seconds
400 RWHP = 12.5 seconds
340 RWHP = 12.9 seconds
Mustang v8:
Saleen supercharger intercooled, (JDM 500 hp) 422 RWHP
Saleen supercharger intercooled, cammed, full exhaust, intake, 455 RWHP
Vortech S-Trim intercooled full exhaust, 444 RWHP
Turbonetics Turbo intercooled: 467 RWHP
For the sake of knowledge correct these numbers based on your oppinion:
X-charger intercooled 340 rwhp
Vortech intercooled cams heads full exhhast 400 rwhp
X-charger intercooled cams heads mac filter methanol full exhaust, probably 390 rwhp
PH turbo intercooled 440 rwhp
x-charger 20% more hp/tq under 3500 rpm than vortech
vortech 5% more hp/tq under 3500 rpm than a turbo.
440 RWHP = 11.9 seconds
400 RWHP = 12.5 seconds
340 RWHP = 12.9 seconds
Mustang v8:
Saleen supercharger intercooled, (JDM 500 hp) 422 RWHP
Saleen supercharger intercooled, cammed, full exhaust, intake, 455 RWHP
Vortech S-Trim intercooled full exhaust, 444 RWHP
Turbonetics Turbo intercooled: 467 RWHP
For the others what are the cams specs? is the lobe seperation FI friendly or blowing boost out the exhaust. Any other mods? And most importatntly are the supporting mods in place? Suspension? Tires? I don't do bench racer math. I give out numbers I have seen with my own eyes. Your #s are WAY off. I ran 12.5x with 300 rwhp, the car had more in it. I have went FI since then and have not got to take it to the track. My car has supporting mods to maximize my efforts. What does this have to do with the OPs question and start of this thread? I would say to PM me but, I don't feel like debating real world experiences with interwebz #s.
04-01-2009, 09:23 PM
#35
BadAss 13-sec N/A 4.0L
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 243
I'll give a perfect example why the crank calculation is not applicable. A car dynos at 500 rwhp on a DJ. The same car dynos at 560 on a properly loaded and calibrated Mustang Dyno at 560. So, which one do you apply the 15% to (assuming its a auto), or 20% (assuming its a manual).
Not to mention that auto transmissions see different drive train loss depending on the type of trans, converter and other components. Some people say for S197's, 12% should be applied to manuals and 19% should be applied to automatics. There are other factors that come into play, gearing, rotating mass...even wheel/tire size.
Even rwhp dyno numbers are not 100%. All of this is guestimates. Here is a very good recent thread on the new E-Force blower dyno results, that goes into the ins and outs of dyno numbers:
http://s197forum.com/forum/showthrea...t=14279&page=2
Not to mention that auto transmissions see different drive train loss depending on the type of trans, converter and other components. Some people say for S197's, 12% should be applied to manuals and 19% should be applied to automatics. There are other factors that come into play, gearing, rotating mass...even wheel/tire size.
Even rwhp dyno numbers are not 100%. All of this is guestimates. Here is a very good recent thread on the new E-Force blower dyno results, that goes into the ins and outs of dyno numbers:
http://s197forum.com/forum/showthrea...t=14279&page=2
04-01-2009, 09:41 PM
#37
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Near Wash. DC Posts: 13,541
Posts: 2,497
The drag times are with street tires because the OP will most likely be running those (you're the one who's asking how does this comparison help the OP). Using the rule that Drag Radials equal half a second, 300 RWHP = 13.1 seconds which is also a baseline for the 'basic' FI systems that I agree with.
Last edited by Legion5; 04-01-2009 at 11:36 PM.
04-01-2009, 09:58 PM
#38
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: TX
Posts: 355
sort of on topic .
The only readily available inline 6 that puts down over 1000hp consistently in most peoples price range that I know of is a toyota
2jzgte a few tune shops will put 2jz engines in just about anything .URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzMI4DoYl04"]dyno youtube vid Warning (toyota only)[/URL]
Last edited by clintster77; 04-01-2009 at 10:05 PM.
04-01-2009, 09:59 PM
#39
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,258
Man Legion.... you come up with some crazy stuff... it seems like every thread I see you in you are making some absurd claims... Anyway, you've made plenty of mistakes with those numbers. For one, you CAN make 850(crank)hp WITHOUT an engine swap in the 3v. It's already been done. There are PLENTY of people 500(crank)hp on stock blocks with NO problems. 850 equates to about 722rwhp(assuming 15% loss) while 500 equates to 425 assuming the same amount of loss. AmericanSpeed for one has been running on VERY CLOSE to 500 rwhp with 0 problems. And he probably drives his car harder than most people on this forums. I don't keep up with the V6's much but from what i've heard they don't last long on stock internals when they're hanging around 400rwhp. The guys in the section are probably a lot more knowledgable on that.
There is a thread around here somewhere with a ton of S197 V8 Dyno numbers on this forum... just can't remember where right now... here's the 1 for the V6s tho... have a look through it...
https://mustangforums.com/forum/4-0l...o-numbers.html
There is a thread around here somewhere with a ton of S197 V8 Dyno numbers on this forum... just can't remember where right now... here's the 1 for the V6s tho... have a look through it...
https://mustangforums.com/forum/4-0l...o-numbers.html
04-02-2009, 06:08 AM
#40
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,172
Duratec is an awesome motor. I can't wait to see it in the mustang. Also, the aussie falcon motor is in fact a ford motor.
Last edited by rygenstormlocke; 04-02-2009 at 06:10 AM.