tvs vs centri
05-25-2014, 11:58 AM
#11
Just my two cents: Centri-type mechanical compressors are best for applications that ModBargains has described: top end power for road racing and not so much for straight line accelerations demanding instantaneous torque.
I say this because many of the older centri-type compressors suffer from belt slip due to the inertia of the compressor wheel which is extremely pronounced especially when you need to spin that compressor wheel to 10K+ RPM.
Newer centri-type compressors probably address this with better belt designs with wider and belt widths and more ribs or smaller compressor wheels, or a combination of both.
I am naive to centri-supercharger design today, but I would hope that modern units have mitigated belt slipping issues that plague the older units.
Based on reports and data of the older centri-type compressors, I am more inclined to recommend a TVS compressor for drag racing instead.
Centrifugal type compressors, either mechanically coupled to the crank or exhaust driven like turbos, all suffer from wheel inertia and thus either lag (turbos) and belt slippage (centri-type units).
I say this because many of the older centri-type compressors suffer from belt slip due to the inertia of the compressor wheel which is extremely pronounced especially when you need to spin that compressor wheel to 10K+ RPM.
Newer centri-type compressors probably address this with better belt designs with wider and belt widths and more ribs or smaller compressor wheels, or a combination of both.
I am naive to centri-supercharger design today, but I would hope that modern units have mitigated belt slipping issues that plague the older units.
Based on reports and data of the older centri-type compressors, I am more inclined to recommend a TVS compressor for drag racing instead.
Centrifugal type compressors, either mechanically coupled to the crank or exhaust driven like turbos, all suffer from wheel inertia and thus either lag (turbos) and belt slippage (centri-type units).
05-25-2014, 04:20 PM
#12
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 10
Im still thinkin centri
-lighter
-safer for my driving style
- the tvs will geive me monster tq but also monster traction problems. I have nittos now and dont want to run anything more extreme.
-mpg will be better and as I drive it all summer
-cooler air temps, less heat soak
No one reason decided it but all together seems like the right choice.
-lighter
-safer for my driving style
- the tvs will geive me monster tq but also monster traction problems. I have nittos now and dont want to run anything more extreme.
-mpg will be better and as I drive it all summer
-cooler air temps, less heat soak
No one reason decided it but all together seems like the right choice.
05-25-2014, 05:01 PM
#13
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 11,278
I'm running the UPR-spec ProCharger D-1SC kit on my daily driver, at 10psi. (roughly 625rwhp on pump 93 tune) I absolutely love it. It drives like a stocker when I want it to, but it's pretty fast when I lean on it. A TVS car with 100hp less would blow off the tires at will, which is fun if you WANT to do that... not as fun if you're just trying to change lanes in traffic. Meanwhile, I ran 10.89 @ 128 last week at 3870lbs on 19/20 wheels and pump 93 in my 5.0, and it got 31.7 MPGs average on the way to the track!
Honestly, I like both ProChargers and TVSs, but I prefer ProChargers.
Honestly, I like both ProChargers and TVSs, but I prefer ProChargers.
05-26-2014, 11:53 AM
#14
Im still thinkin centri
-lighter
-safer for my driving style
- the tvs will geive me monster tq but also monster traction problems. I have nittos now and dont want to run anything more extreme.
-mpg will be better and as I drive it all summer
-cooler air temps, less heat soak
No one reason decided it but all together seems like the right choice.
-lighter
-safer for my driving style
- the tvs will geive me monster tq but also monster traction problems. I have nittos now and dont want to run anything more extreme.
-mpg will be better and as I drive it all summer
-cooler air temps, less heat soak
No one reason decided it but all together seems like the right choice.
Based on what you wrote, your driving style appears to be for the most part street daily driving with only very little drag strip time (once a week at most I assume).
With this in mind, do your research well and by all means, do not jump on the biggest impeller diameter highest advertised HP units. Those types of units are for top speed sustained HP application and are counterproductive to your driving style and what you will need on the drag strip. The belt slipping is the issue I am referring to.
Even though you will be sacrificing big boost and monster HP, going with a smaller HP smaller impeller diameter centri-type unit will give you instantaneous boost when you stomp the gas pedal off the line without ruining your belt and putting your pulley bearings and pulley contact surfaces at risk.
I just want to make one clarification; more just for informational purposes, not to steer you in one direction or another.
Centri-type mechanical compressors will comparably create a similar amount of compressive heat as mechanical compressors, lbf boost for lbf boost. But to a degree, you are right that impeller type compressors will create less heat, but mostly only on the mechanical friction side (moving parts friction, not fluid compression of the air).
What I mean by compressive heat is the heat created when a gas is compressed. All gases heat up when they are squeezed into a smaller volume. In our case, air is no different because air is also a gas.
No matter what compressor design you are using, turbo chargers, lobe mechanical compressors, or impeller centri-type compressors, all of them create heat by the simple fact they are squeezing gas (air in our case) into a smaller volume. This is just the way physics is (you can look up the Gas Laws, particularly the Ideal Gas Law, for a rather simple explanation of what is happening).
In the end, every type of compressor can be made to work for virtually any application. But each has their benefits and drawbacks.
For example, turbos suffer turbo lag in drag racing but are awesome in top speed goals of high speed sustained high HP. Turbos can be adapted to instantaneous, no-lag boost but you have to sacrifice top HP with smaller wheels to mitigate or virtually eliminate the wheels' inertiae (inertea is plural of inertia, lol). Optionally, you can go the compound staged different sized turbos plumbed in series, where you have a small wheeled turbo for low RPM torque for instantaneous boost followed by a larger wheeled turbo just behind it to keep max HP goals. But this setup is expensive.
Just like turbos, centri-type impeller compressors are one or the other, not both. You either get less HP but get instant boost, or you get massive HP but get belt slippage due to the same inertial reasons that give you turbo lag. Going with a centri-compressor compound staged set-up just like I described in turbos is not feasible for our purposes. For one, you will have to fabricate too many more parts such as an additional pulley system to run the 2nd centri-compressor, for the 2nd reason, you have to still address belt slipping on the larger centri-compressor even though the smaller one will not suffer belt slipping. For the 3rd reason, cost. Buying one supercharger kit is expensive enough. Buying two to hack them up so you can fabricate a pulley contraption to run both of them is very expensive.
The bottom line is when choosing your centri-unit, be it Vortech, Procharger, or whichever, do your research well before handing over several thousand. Also, heat soak is inevitable when you push your vehicle hard. The smaller impeller diameter centris will give you less boost and less HP, but you will be least likely to heat soak in your drag racing. Going too large of an impeller diameter might get you to that heat soak range, in which case you would need an intercooler.
I confess however, I never been to the dragstrip with centri-type compressors. But from what I know about lobe-type compressors, you can make a pass or so without any reason to worry about heat soak, especially if you have plenty of time to cool down in between passes.
But for sustained driving conditions when you are under constant boost, such as road course racing, you need an intercooler because heat soak cannot be avoided. Even then, the heat soak could overwhelm the intercooler if you are on the higher end of your boost all the time. And it does not matter if you are using turbos, lobe compressors, or impeller type compressors.
Last edited by JIM5.0; 05-26-2014 at 11:55 AM.
05-26-2014, 01:04 PM
#15
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 10
Since you made up your mind to go the centri-type compressor route, do your research well.
Based on what you wrote, your driving style appears to be for the most part street daily driving with only very little drag strip time (once a week at most I assume).
With this in mind, do your research well and by all means, do not jump on the biggest impeller diameter highest advertised HP units. Those types of units are for top speed sustained HP application and are counterproductive to your driving style and what you will need on the drag strip. The belt slipping is the issue I am referring to.
Even though you will be sacrificing big boost and monster HP, going with a smaller HP smaller impeller diameter centri-type unit will give you instantaneous boost when you stomp the gas pedal off the line without ruining your belt and putting your pulley bearings and pulley contact surfaces at risk.
I just want to make one clarification; more just for informational purposes, not to steer you in one direction or another.
Centri-type mechanical compressors will comparably create a similar amount of compressive heat as mechanical compressors, lbf boost for lbf boost. But to a degree, you are right that impeller type compressors will create less heat, but mostly only on the mechanical friction side (moving parts friction, not fluid compression of the air).
What I mean by compressive heat is the heat created when a gas is compressed. All gases heat up when they are squeezed into a smaller volume. In our case, air is no different because air is also a gas.
No matter what compressor design you are using, turbo chargers, lobe mechanical compressors, or impeller centri-type compressors, all of them create heat by the simple fact they are squeezing gas (air in our case) into a smaller volume. This is just the way physics is (you can look up the Gas Laws, particularly the Ideal Gas Law, for a rather simple explanation of what is happening).
In the end, every type of compressor can be made to work for virtually any application. But each has their benefits and drawbacks.
For example, turbos suffer turbo lag in drag racing but are awesome in top speed goals of high speed sustained high HP. Turbos can be adapted to instantaneous, no-lag boost but you have to sacrifice top HP with smaller wheels to mitigate or virtually eliminate the wheels' inertiae (inertea is plural of inertia, lol). Optionally, you can go the compound staged different sized turbos plumbed in series, where you have a small wheeled turbo for low RPM torque for instantaneous boost followed by a larger wheeled turbo just behind it to keep max HP goals. But this setup is expensive.
Just like turbos, centri-type impeller compressors are one or the other, not both. You either get less HP but get instant boost, or you get massive HP but get belt slippage due to the same inertial reasons that give you turbo lag. Going with a centri-compressor compound staged set-up just like I described in turbos is not feasible for our purposes. For one, you will have to fabricate too many more parts such as an additional pulley system to run the 2nd centri-compressor, for the 2nd reason, you have to still address belt slipping on the larger centri-compressor even though the smaller one will not suffer belt slipping. For the 3rd reason, cost. Buying one supercharger kit is expensive enough. Buying two to hack them up so you can fabricate a pulley contraption to run both of them is very expensive.
The bottom line is when choosing your centri-unit, be it Vortech, Procharger, or whichever, do your research well before handing over several thousand. Also, heat soak is inevitable when you push your vehicle hard. The smaller impeller diameter centris will give you less boost and less HP, but you will be least likely to heat soak in your drag racing. Going too large of an impeller diameter might get you to that heat soak range, in which case you would need an intercooler.
I confess however, I never been to the dragstrip with centri-type compressors. But from what I know about lobe-type compressors, you can make a pass or so without any reason to worry about heat soak, especially if you have plenty of time to cool down in between passes.
But for sustained driving conditions when you are under constant boost, such as road course racing, you need an intercooler because heat soak cannot be avoided. Even then, the heat soak could overwhelm the intercooler if you are on the higher end of your boost all the time. And it does not matter if you are using turbos, lobe compressors, or impeller type compressors.
Based on what you wrote, your driving style appears to be for the most part street daily driving with only very little drag strip time (once a week at most I assume).
With this in mind, do your research well and by all means, do not jump on the biggest impeller diameter highest advertised HP units. Those types of units are for top speed sustained HP application and are counterproductive to your driving style and what you will need on the drag strip. The belt slipping is the issue I am referring to.
Even though you will be sacrificing big boost and monster HP, going with a smaller HP smaller impeller diameter centri-type unit will give you instantaneous boost when you stomp the gas pedal off the line without ruining your belt and putting your pulley bearings and pulley contact surfaces at risk.
I just want to make one clarification; more just for informational purposes, not to steer you in one direction or another.
Centri-type mechanical compressors will comparably create a similar amount of compressive heat as mechanical compressors, lbf boost for lbf boost. But to a degree, you are right that impeller type compressors will create less heat, but mostly only on the mechanical friction side (moving parts friction, not fluid compression of the air).
What I mean by compressive heat is the heat created when a gas is compressed. All gases heat up when they are squeezed into a smaller volume. In our case, air is no different because air is also a gas.
No matter what compressor design you are using, turbo chargers, lobe mechanical compressors, or impeller centri-type compressors, all of them create heat by the simple fact they are squeezing gas (air in our case) into a smaller volume. This is just the way physics is (you can look up the Gas Laws, particularly the Ideal Gas Law, for a rather simple explanation of what is happening).
In the end, every type of compressor can be made to work for virtually any application. But each has their benefits and drawbacks.
For example, turbos suffer turbo lag in drag racing but are awesome in top speed goals of high speed sustained high HP. Turbos can be adapted to instantaneous, no-lag boost but you have to sacrifice top HP with smaller wheels to mitigate or virtually eliminate the wheels' inertiae (inertea is plural of inertia, lol). Optionally, you can go the compound staged different sized turbos plumbed in series, where you have a small wheeled turbo for low RPM torque for instantaneous boost followed by a larger wheeled turbo just behind it to keep max HP goals. But this setup is expensive.
Just like turbos, centri-type impeller compressors are one or the other, not both. You either get less HP but get instant boost, or you get massive HP but get belt slippage due to the same inertial reasons that give you turbo lag. Going with a centri-compressor compound staged set-up just like I described in turbos is not feasible for our purposes. For one, you will have to fabricate too many more parts such as an additional pulley system to run the 2nd centri-compressor, for the 2nd reason, you have to still address belt slipping on the larger centri-compressor even though the smaller one will not suffer belt slipping. For the 3rd reason, cost. Buying one supercharger kit is expensive enough. Buying two to hack them up so you can fabricate a pulley contraption to run both of them is very expensive.
The bottom line is when choosing your centri-unit, be it Vortech, Procharger, or whichever, do your research well before handing over several thousand. Also, heat soak is inevitable when you push your vehicle hard. The smaller impeller diameter centris will give you less boost and less HP, but you will be least likely to heat soak in your drag racing. Going too large of an impeller diameter might get you to that heat soak range, in which case you would need an intercooler.
I confess however, I never been to the dragstrip with centri-type compressors. But from what I know about lobe-type compressors, you can make a pass or so without any reason to worry about heat soak, especially if you have plenty of time to cool down in between passes.
But for sustained driving conditions when you are under constant boost, such as road course racing, you need an intercooler because heat soak cannot be avoided. Even then, the heat soak could overwhelm the intercooler if you are on the higher end of your boost all the time. And it does not matter if you are using turbos, lobe compressors, or impeller type compressors.
05-26-2014, 06:10 PM
#16
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 11,278
I'm sure heat soak is referring to the positive displacement supercharger staying hot longer, because it's sitting on top of the motor. I know my whipple gets hot! and it stays hot for some time after the motor is off. I can't imagine that procharger in the pic getting very hot or staying hot.
It would be interesting to see some IAT's of both on a 5.0. Both are going to heat the air from compression like jim said, but which has lower IAT's after the charge goes through the heat exchanger/intercooler? I assume the procharger uses an air to air heat exchanger.
The real question is does the screw type compressors acting as a huge heat sink affect the temp of the air charge? My thinking is the air is moving through to fast to soak up additional heat. if so, then the real question is which works better, a water to air intercooler or air to air after cooler?
You'll have traction issues with either one in 1st and 2nd gear.
It would be interesting to see some IAT's of both on a 5.0. Both are going to heat the air from compression like jim said, but which has lower IAT's after the charge goes through the heat exchanger/intercooler? I assume the procharger uses an air to air heat exchanger.
The real question is does the screw type compressors acting as a huge heat sink affect the temp of the air charge? My thinking is the air is moving through to fast to soak up additional heat. if so, then the real question is which works better, a water to air intercooler or air to air after cooler?
You'll have traction issues with either one in 1st and 2nd gear.
05-26-2014, 08:22 PM
#17
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 509
I'm sure heat soak is referring to the positive displacement supercharger staying hot longer, because it's sitting on top of the motor. I know my whipple gets hot! and it stays hot for some time after the motor is off. I can't imagine that procharger in the pic getting very hot or staying hot.
It would be interesting to see some IAT's of both on a 5.0. Both are going to heat the air from compression like jim said, but which has lower IAT's after the charge goes through the heat exchanger/intercooler? I assume the procharger uses an air to air heat exchanger.
It would be interesting to see some IAT's of both on a 5.0. Both are going to heat the air from compression like jim said, but which has lower IAT's after the charge goes through the heat exchanger/intercooler? I assume the procharger uses an air to air heat exchanger.
Can't imagine a 5.0 being TOO much different than mine.
Now, I remember a buddy of mine telling me a while back that his Whipple's IAT's would hit about 180-185...just cruising around town and stomping on it a little bit.
I'm a firm believer that a centri is the best blower in terms of engine longevity...just my own opinion.
Last edited by moochman4life; 05-26-2014 at 09:15 PM.
05-26-2014, 08:54 PM
#18
I wouldn't say it's noisy at idle, but I think it does sound good. Mine has the straight cut gears which are noisier than the helical cut gears. But again, I love that patented ProCharger sound. The helical gears minimize that though, if you don't like it.Here's the first start up vid with the hood up so you can hear the blower:
05-26-2014, 10:38 PM
#20
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 874
1.) Just going to throw this out there as a disclaimer: don't street race. *wink wink, nudge nudge*
2.) It sounds like you're already going with the centri, but you can't go wrong either way and if you want to save tires the centri is probably the way to go. You MIGHT get caught from a dig but once it kicks in you'll blow them away (assuming they're not running something too). Realize that no matter how much you take care of it, stuff will probably break if you're going to go hard. You'll be safe with a good tune (the tune is the KEY here, get it done by a reputable shop). A bad tune will grenade your motor no matter how easy you are on it. So just make sure you do your homework there as well!
2.) It sounds like you're already going with the centri, but you can't go wrong either way and if you want to save tires the centri is probably the way to go. You MIGHT get caught from a dig but once it kicks in you'll blow them away (assuming they're not running something too). Realize that no matter how much you take care of it, stuff will probably break if you're going to go hard. You'll be safe with a good tune (the tune is the KEY here, get it done by a reputable shop). A bad tune will grenade your motor no matter how easy you are on it. So just make sure you do your homework there as well!