Well first of all, AFR on their own site lists the 165's as flowing 245/191 at .600, you also have to look at flows at lower lifts. Most performancestreet cars have a cam around .500-.550 lift and do most of their breathing in the .200-.400 lift range, so that's where flow is more important. Secondly port volume is of TRMENDOUS importance(Cleveland ports are too big, which is why CHI heads rock, they use smaller ports), not just flow, because flow/port volume determines velocity, and higher port velocity is more important for making power than higher port flow. You can have the best flowing heads in the world, without goodport velocity though you have no volumetric efficiency and power production suffers. Third, yes AFR 165's outflow stock Cleveland heads, whether it's a 2V a 4V or a Boss 4V unless you run a very high lift cam, .700 or more, and at very high rpm, but then it's no longer a street engine. http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#Ford Go there and look if you don't believe me, Cleve heads don't outflow even the smallest AFR head until after .500 lift, and even then it's outflowed on the exhaust by the AFR head, which will have a HUGE impact on power production.

As for your cost analysis, it's a sham of a comparison, because the W build spent MORE to get good heads(almost twice as much for heads and prep), so of course it cost more. The Cleve build spent $800 just to get apreped set of heads, no porting or anything for a head with a 230+cc intake port that flows considerably less than something like an AFR 185 with a 185cc intake port(more port flow AND more port velocity, which means a LOT more power). The Cleveland used stock heads, the Windsor did not, which is why the W cost more, and even then only a few hundred dollars more for an engine that will make quite a bit more power because of far superior heads.

As for the heads you listed, they were either very expensive heads(such as CHI, which are VERY good heads, but around $2,500+ for a pair assembled, plus $500 more for a manifold you need to use with those heads), full race heads such as the c302b(which require a lot of porting to make them work because they come unpoerted with ports you can get your fingers stuck in they're so small)and Blue Thunders which are HUGE(but an excellent race head), or flowed less with larger ports(even after working them) than a decent $1,400 set ofaftermarket heads. Clevelands can make power, yes, I'm not denying that, but it requires either VERY expensive heads ora LOT of head reworking both of which reduce the cost effectiveness of a Cleveland, or you have touse either a MUCH larger displacement engine to draw enough air through the heads to get any meaningful port velocity, or turn very high rpm which makes the engine unstreetable. For a stock race class Clevelands are nice, but for daily drivable street performance they simply can't compete with Windsor family engines with the same budget, parts for the W's are simply too cheap and too plentiful for a Cleveland to compete with. If you already have a Cleveland then yeah, build it cuz it's cheaper for power than buying a whole new engine, or if you have an authentic Cleveland car and you want to keep it that way.

I mean for God's sake, Clevelands are more than 30 years old!! A lot has changed in 30 years, and it's why the guys with Windsors todayare running good aftermarket heads instead of stock early 70's heads to try to make good power. Same thing with Clevelands, newer more expensive heads make more power than older stock heads.

 

Well first of all, AFR on their own site lists the 165's as flowing 245/191 at .600, you also have to look at flows at lower lifts. Most performancestreet cars have a cam around .500-.550 lift and do most of their breathing in the .200-.400 lift range, so that's where flow is more important. Secondly port volume is of TRMENDOUS importance(Cleveland ports are too big, which is why CHI heads rock, they use smaller ports), not just flow, because flow/port volume determines velocity, and higher port velocity is more important for making power than higher port flow. You can have the best flowing heads in the world, without goodport velocity though you have no volumetric efficiency and power production suffers. Third, yes AFR 165's outflow stock Cleveland heads, whether it's a 2V a 4V or a Boss 4V unless you run a very high lift cam, .700 or more, and at very high rpm, but then it's no longer a street engine. http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#Ford Go there and look if you don't believe me, Cleve heads don't outflow even the smallest AFR head until after .500 lift, and even then it's outflowed on the exhaust by the AFR head, which will have a HUGE impact on power production.

As for your cost analysis, it's a sham of a comparison, because the W build spent MORE to get good heads(almost twice as much for heads and prep), so of course it cost more. The Cleve build spent $800 just to get apreped set of heads, no porting or anything for a head with a 230+cc intake port that flows considerably less than something like an AFR 185 with a 185cc intake port(more port flow AND more port velocity, which means a LOT more power). The Cleveland used stock heads, the Windsor did not, which is why the W cost more, and even then only a few hundred dollars more for an engine that will make quite a bit more power because of far superior heads.

As for the heads you listed, they were either very expensive heads(such as CHI, which are VERY good heads, but around $2,500+ for a pair assembled, plus $500 more for a manifold you need to use with those heads), full race heads such as the c302b(which require a lot of porting to make them work because they come unpoerted with ports you can get your fingers stuck in they're so small)and Blue Thunders which are HUGE(but an excellent race head), or flowed less with larger ports(even after working them) than a decent $1,400 set ofaftermarket heads. Clevelands can make power, yes, I'm not denying that, but it requires either VERY expensive heads ora LOT of head reworking both of which reduce the cost effectiveness of a Cleveland, or you have touse either a MUCH larger displacement engine to draw enough air through the heads to get any meaningful port velocity, or turn very high rpm which makes the engine unstreetable. For a stock race class Clevelands are nice, but for daily drivable street performance they simply can't compete with Windsor family engines with the same budget, parts for the W's are simply too cheap and too plentiful for a Cleveland to compete with. If you already have a Cleveland then yeah, build it cuz it's cheaper for power than buying a whole new engine, or if you have an authentic Cleveland car and you want to keep it that way.

I mean for God's sake, Clevelands are more than 30 years old!! A lot has changed in 30 years, and it's why the guys with Windsors todayare running good aftermarket heads instead of stock early 70's heads to try to make good power. Same thing with Clevelands, newer more expensive heads make more power than older stock heads.

 

Thanks for that marvelous insight easttenmotors. The "stroke it" comments are based on the fact that it costs little more to stroke when doing a rebuild. Sure, you can make power with a 302, but why not stroke it while you are replacing everything anyway?
Give me a 350 Hp 347 ANY DAY over a 350 Hp 302! If reving a 302 to 7000 floats your boat, then go for it.

 

Hmmm....this psychotic site posted me twice..... [>:]

 

Well, first of all I'm makingmore than 350hp at less than 6,000rpm with a 302, and secondly, a 302 is gonna take more abuse than a 347 before breaking because the shorter stroke means less stress on the crank and block, so a 302 would be preferable for a blower or nitrous when cost is a factor(more oversqaure engines also response more favorably to boost). A reliable blown/sprayed 302 will cost less than a reliable blown/sprayed 347....key word being reliable. It all depends on how you want to make power

 

you'll have a hell ofa time getting it in and ever doing work on either engine. They had to pull then engine to just change the spark plugs :P. Also this deffinately depends on you goal for the car. IMO this is a light car light cars work very well with high rpms such as the 302, But if you must have a bad *** engine that will give you a head ache every time you work on it id say buy em both a build yourself a clever :P. Fair warning tho the factory mustangs with these larger small blocks tend to make the car very nose heavy.

 

Actually the $800 I spent on my heads included porting on the exhaust side to improve the flow there.
Additionally by using them on a stroker it means that I can actually use the ports of the 4v heads.

My first 408c made 396 at the back tire right around 6900 RPM and had gobs of torque with a peak right where we started the run. That was on bone stock 4v heads and through an AOD and a 9 inch with 4.11 gear
http://users.zoominternet.net/~dodge...wdynosheet.jpg

Also I've never said you can't make more power in a c with new aftermarket heads than the stock heads. I think the point is I don't have to use an aftermarket head to make good power with my old antiquanted heads. Different strokes for different folks I mean its not like the winner of the automaster challenge for the last couple of years wheren't either a straight cleveland or a clevor (windsor block with c style heads) based motor...ohh wait....

 

It happens...its been throwing the ASP error for me for 2 days straight practically.

 

I don't think anyone is talking about forced induction or nitrous here. The basis of stroking is that you can make the same power at lower revs, and more torque. Everyone is so concerned with power figures, and don't "talk about torque".
As I said, give me a 350Hp 347 anyday over 360Hp 302.

 

If I may inject a bit of reasoning that has been overlooked so far, or at least I think it has. The answer is simple... BOTH !

Build yourself a Clevor.302 block and crank , aftermarket rods , forged dome pistons , closed chamber Australian Cleveland 2 barrel heads , Boss 302 aluminum intake. Spend a few dollars on the routine line boring, deck plating, balancing,rod bolts, etc... and you'll have a nice little 302 cubic inch monster at your fingertips.

I've built them, I've raced them and I LOVE THEM. Big revs, big torque and a relatively simple build up with parts that are easy to find.

JMHO, Dean

Oh, and for those of you that think Clevelands are 30 year old junk... send them all to my place for proper storage. I promise to give them a happy home