New Coyote engine in 1971 Mach 1??
01-20-2011, 02:55 PM
#32
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MO
Posts: 439
If you buy or build a forged short block, aluminum heads, cam, intake, carb or EFI, you'll probably have at least $5K or $6K in it, right? (That is, assuming you're going to do it right. We could just go to the pick and pull and grab a 351W or 351C and dress it up a little and put it in. Put in a cam and intake, and maybe get 400+, but if we're talking about a classic restoration, perhaps a nice cruiser, we'd probably want something a little nicer than that, at least a rebuild with new rings and bearings.) Are we talking about forged internals or just using a stock shortblock? If we're just talking about putting on some cheap heads and intake, with a cam, on an old shortblock, then that'll be cheap. But I can put a Vortech package on a Lincoln Mark VIII motor and make 500 HP pretty easily (and I've put together a Vortech kit for $1000 on ebay before) and have less than $2000 in the motor. It seems like when talking about how cheap it is to build a SBF compared to a mod motor there are lots of apples and oranges to consider.
Not trying to continue an argument, I'm just curious how much cheaper it really is. Granted you have to do some suspension work (at least notch the towers) to put in a mod motor, but I'd guess I have less in my Heidts front end than most guys have in their upgraded stock front end. I've seen R&P kits that cost more than a full Heidts kit. Again, lots of apples and oranges.
01-20-2011, 05:22 PM
#33
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
First consider that a built SBF isn't using stock internals like all the MOD engines you're talking about are(except for 03/04 Cobra blocks which are al forged internals). You're trying to compare costs on a built up SBF with much better internals to a stock MOD with stock internals that you slap a blower on. One will last where the other will not.
But a built 347 that's making ~500hp Can run you upwards of $10,000 depending on what you get, sometimes more. Typical crate engines you buy run ~$7,500 for a 347 and are good for 450-500hp n/a. And it bolts right in. A typical MOD 450-500hp built crate engine runs ~$15,000 and up.....twice the cost and usually using a blower(because they're smaller cid). The SBF will bolt in without fuss....the MOD engine will not, it requires front suspension conversion, steering conversion, fabrication(several thousand $ more)....different trans/bellhousing etc. And those are for 2 comparably built engines.
And that doesn't even get into all the nickel and diming you may run into along the way in large conversions, in addition to compromised handling.
You seem hard up to act like a MOD engine is free or dirt cheap, and all you have to do is just slap a blower on it and go. Then you're comparing a SBF with rock solid internals to a stock MOD shortblock. The fact of the matter is that built MOD's average nearly 2x the cost to build as comparably built SBF's. And most MOD's require better heads to make that kind of power, ported or at least good factory 4V heads which are not cheap(more expensive to set up often than buying a brand new set of aftermarkets for SBF). Plus conversion costs, fuel system, trans etc.
Performance engines that are built to survive are always expensive, and the more complex the engine, the more expensive it build up. That's why comparable GM LS crate engines are cheaper than MOD counterparts, the engine is less complex...even though both are new engines.
Sure, you can get a MOD engine from somewhere, junkyard etc, slap a blower on it and go....but it's never going to take the kind of abuse that a built engine will. Regardless of SBF, MOD, LS etc, built engines are just that....built, so they survive.
Complex engines like the MOD are much more expensive to build. That's one of the reasons SBF's still dominate the power arena among Fords and represent the vast majority of engines out there....they're much cheaper to build for power. And then step it up...MODS are cheap to build in comparison to some of the European stuff which is even more complex.
But a built 347 that's making ~500hp Can run you upwards of $10,000 depending on what you get, sometimes more. Typical crate engines you buy run ~$7,500 for a 347 and are good for 450-500hp n/a. And it bolts right in. A typical MOD 450-500hp built crate engine runs ~$15,000 and up.....twice the cost and usually using a blower(because they're smaller cid). The SBF will bolt in without fuss....the MOD engine will not, it requires front suspension conversion, steering conversion, fabrication(several thousand $ more)....different trans/bellhousing etc. And those are for 2 comparably built engines.
And that doesn't even get into all the nickel and diming you may run into along the way in large conversions, in addition to compromised handling.
You seem hard up to act like a MOD engine is free or dirt cheap, and all you have to do is just slap a blower on it and go. Then you're comparing a SBF with rock solid internals to a stock MOD shortblock. The fact of the matter is that built MOD's average nearly 2x the cost to build as comparably built SBF's. And most MOD's require better heads to make that kind of power, ported or at least good factory 4V heads which are not cheap(more expensive to set up often than buying a brand new set of aftermarkets for SBF). Plus conversion costs, fuel system, trans etc.
Performance engines that are built to survive are always expensive, and the more complex the engine, the more expensive it build up. That's why comparable GM LS crate engines are cheaper than MOD counterparts, the engine is less complex...even though both are new engines.
Sure, you can get a MOD engine from somewhere, junkyard etc, slap a blower on it and go....but it's never going to take the kind of abuse that a built engine will. Regardless of SBF, MOD, LS etc, built engines are just that....built, so they survive.
Complex engines like the MOD are much more expensive to build. That's one of the reasons SBF's still dominate the power arena among Fords and represent the vast majority of engines out there....they're much cheaper to build for power. And then step it up...MODS are cheap to build in comparison to some of the European stuff which is even more complex.
01-20-2011, 06:49 PM
#34
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
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On a really level playing field - 4.6 vs 289 and/or Coyote vs 302, everybody normally aspirated and coming at least somewhere near meeting current emissions and economy requirements, I wonder how big the gap truly would be then.
I'm sure that there's some development left in the pushrod motors, but redesigned heads with improved valve angles aren't going to be cheap (I just read about somebody's 9° SBC heads - forget whose - where OE was/is 23°). Head bolts that fasten deeper down in the block rather than only into the deck surface is another relatively recent development. There's quite a few things that somebody like Dart might be able to do within the basic SBF dimension set. It would still look like a garden-variety SBF anyway.
Norm
I'm sure that there's some development left in the pushrod motors, but redesigned heads with improved valve angles aren't going to be cheap (I just read about somebody's 9° SBC heads - forget whose - where OE was/is 23°). Head bolts that fasten deeper down in the block rather than only into the deck surface is another relatively recent development. There's quite a few things that somebody like Dart might be able to do within the basic SBF dimension set. It would still look like a garden-variety SBF anyway.
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 01-26-2011 at 05:36 AM.
01-20-2011, 09:06 PM
#35
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
GM has done some pushrod development via the LS family. Cathedral ports being the most obvious. But others are more subtle, block design changes etc.
Here's something some people might find interesting. Comparison between a Formula 1 powerplant(2.4L n/a V8) and a NASCAR Cup powerplant(5.8L n/a V8). It brings up the point that the Cup engine has much more severe limitations placed on it beyond just being a 2V pushrod engine. Considering that, and that these engines represent the pinnacle of engine development in their respective design types....gives you an idea of how narrow the gap really is on a more level playing field, at least in terms of where technology, design and so forth can take engines.
Keep in mind that a typical Cup engines costs ~$60,000 whereas an F1 engine costs ~$330,000. Phenomenally more cost for a few % more efficiency in a much less rules restricted engine. Gives you an appreciation for just how well carb'd pushrod engines generate power for $$ spent, especially when taken to the limit.
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine..._cup_to_f1.htm
Here's something some people might find interesting. Comparison between a Formula 1 powerplant(2.4L n/a V8) and a NASCAR Cup powerplant(5.8L n/a V8). It brings up the point that the Cup engine has much more severe limitations placed on it beyond just being a 2V pushrod engine. Considering that, and that these engines represent the pinnacle of engine development in their respective design types....gives you an idea of how narrow the gap really is on a more level playing field, at least in terms of where technology, design and so forth can take engines.
Keep in mind that a typical Cup engines costs ~$60,000 whereas an F1 engine costs ~$330,000. Phenomenally more cost for a few % more efficiency in a much less rules restricted engine. Gives you an appreciation for just how well carb'd pushrod engines generate power for $$ spent, especially when taken to the limit.
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine..._cup_to_f1.htm
01-20-2011, 09:16 PM
#36
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MO
Posts: 439
But a built 347 that's making ~500hp Can run you upwards of $10,000 depending on what you get, sometimes more. Typical crate engines you buy run ~$7,500 for a 347 and are good for 450-500hp n/a. And it bolts right in. A typical MOD 450-500hp built crate engine runs ~$15,000 and up.....twice the cost and usually using a blower(because they're smaller cid).
You seem hard up to act like a MOD engine is free or dirt cheap, and all you have to do is just slap a blower on it and go. Then you're comparing a SBF with rock solid internals to a stock MOD shortblock. The fact of the matter is that built MOD's average nearly 2x the cost to build as comparably built SBF's. And most MOD's require better heads to make that kind of power, ported or at least good factory 4V heads which are not cheap(more expensive to set up often than buying a brand new set of aftermarkets for SBF). Plus conversion costs, fuel system, trans etc.
You seem hard up to act like a MOD engine is free or dirt cheap, and all you have to do is just slap a blower on it and go. Then you're comparing a SBF with rock solid internals to a stock MOD shortblock. The fact of the matter is that built MOD's average nearly 2x the cost to build as comparably built SBF's. And most MOD's require better heads to make that kind of power, ported or at least good factory 4V heads which are not cheap(more expensive to set up often than buying a brand new set of aftermarkets for SBF). Plus conversion costs, fuel system, trans etc.
You can buy the 4.6 Aluminator long block for less than $7K and still have $3K left to spend on the blower setup (which easily can be done, with new takeoff parts) and still be under the $10K mark. Again, I fail to see how that comes out to twice the cost of a comparably build SBF.
I'm not comparing a stock 4.6 motor (non-Terminator) with a blower to a built small block. I was comparing that to a dirt-cheap junk yard build SBF with stock internals. Neither (assuming the SBF is a 289/302/5.0 short block) is going to last long at 500 HP. If you want cheap, the Mark VIII with a Vortech is comparable in cost (or less) to a junk yard build. If you want high-end, the Aluminator crate motor with a blower is still in the range of your $10K 347. Again, where is twice the price?
There are other costs - transmission (but you do need one of those for the SBF too, probably an upgrade to a TK500 at 500 HP) and fuel system (if you're using EFI on the small block, you need the same fuel system). The main difference is modifying the car to take the larger motor.
01-20-2011, 09:39 PM
#37
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
My 4.6 mod motor cost substantially less than the $10,000 figure you quoted for a 347 making 500 HP (closer to your price for the 450-500 HP 347). Granted, I have a blower, but I built it with new forged internals (well the crank was used and reworked), and the price includes $1000 in machine work and the blower. The bottom end should stand up to 700 HP (at least that's the rating on the Manley rods) - basically the same internals as the Terminator, but more compression and different pistons (Mahle). And I spent extra money on things like ARP main and head studs, MMR oil pump, Canton pan and windage tray and still came in way under the $10,000 for the 500 HP 347 (including the electronics). That's hardly twice the cost of a comparably stout SBF.
You can buy the 4.6 Aluminator long block for less than $7K and still have $3K left to spend on the blower setup (which easily can be done, with new takeoff parts) and still be under the $10K mark. Again, I fail to see how that comes out to twice the cost of a comparably build SBF.
I'm not comparing a stock 4.6 motor (non-Terminator) with a blower to a built small block. I was comparing that to a dirt-cheap junk yard build SBF with stock internals. Neither (assuming the SBF is a 289/302/5.0 short block) is going to last long at 500 HP. If you want cheap, the Mark VIII with a Vortech is comparable in cost (or less) to a junk yard build. If you want high-end, the Aluminator crate motor with a blower is still in the range of your $10K 347. Again, where is twice the price?
There are other costs - transmission (but you do need one of those for the SBF too, probably an upgrade to a TK500 at 500 HP) and fuel system (if you're using EFI on the small block, you need the same fuel system). The main difference is modifying the car to take the larger motor.
You can buy the 4.6 Aluminator long block for less than $7K and still have $3K left to spend on the blower setup (which easily can be done, with new takeoff parts) and still be under the $10K mark. Again, I fail to see how that comes out to twice the cost of a comparably build SBF.
I'm not comparing a stock 4.6 motor (non-Terminator) with a blower to a built small block. I was comparing that to a dirt-cheap junk yard build SBF with stock internals. Neither (assuming the SBF is a 289/302/5.0 short block) is going to last long at 500 HP. If you want cheap, the Mark VIII with a Vortech is comparable in cost (or less) to a junk yard build. If you want high-end, the Aluminator crate motor with a blower is still in the range of your $10K 347. Again, where is twice the price?
There are other costs - transmission (but you do need one of those for the SBF too, probably an upgrade to a TK500 at 500 HP) and fuel system (if you're using EFI on the small block, you need the same fuel system). The main difference is modifying the car to take the larger motor.
I'm talking about fully dressed, ready to run engines. And not Ebay bargain shopping, but buying parts new. If you buy parts off Ebay etc do it for the 347 too, you'll spend a lot less money, sometimes half as much. So let's look new...the Aluminator is $7,000 for the long block....then a blower will run you as little as $3,000 for something like a Vortech, to upwards of $7k for a roots/screw type unit. So now you're at anywhere from $10-14k for an engine that still has no ECM, no harness, and no ignition, and still needs basic accessories and brackets. Then you start adding all that in, plus a much more complex and expensive fuel system for an injection(especially blown) engine, vs a carb that uses a dirt cheap fuel system. Costs on an SBF package will obviously go up with an injected setup.
Everything new you're rapidly approaching $20,000 to build a blown MOD engine and have it ready to run. If you can get deals on stuff that's great, do your own work etc. A lot of us do that. I have a $10k 302 that I built for ~$6k. I'm talking about the price to put together a performance engine package and everything else needed to make it run. For the average guy, going out and buying a powerplant package and everything else to make it work, you're looking at anywhere from 1.5x as much to 2x as much for a MOD engine.
I'm not sure how you came in under $10k for a blown MOD engine with electronics, because there's no way in hell I could order up something like that out of Summit, for instance, for less than $15,000 not counting a fuel system.
01-25-2011, 09:46 PM
#39
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 60
I definitely got more than I asked for starting this thread. Thanks to all for the great ideas, warnings, and advice.
After considering the points made here, and doing some more research, I have decided to stick with my 351C and pass on the Coyote - at least for now. Perhaps in a few years if I still have the itch, and some cash to scratch it with, I will change my mind. But for now, it's time to plan the 351C rebuild.
I will again ask for advice from y'all, since the last time I took down a 351C was 1983. Things have changed a lot since then. So look for a new thread from me, and we'll get another debate going!
After considering the points made here, and doing some more research, I have decided to stick with my 351C and pass on the Coyote - at least for now. Perhaps in a few years if I still have the itch, and some cash to scratch it with, I will change my mind. But for now, it's time to plan the 351C rebuild.
I will again ask for advice from y'all, since the last time I took down a 351C was 1983. Things have changed a lot since then. So look for a new thread from me, and we'll get another debate going!