How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twisties?
03-30-2008, 10:38 PM
#21
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tri Cities, TN
Posts: 452
RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twisties?
[quote]ORIGINAL: Sleeper_08
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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[/align]The Ford DEW platform (or DEW98) is Ford Motor Company's midsizerear wheel driveautomobile platform. The D/E nomenclature was meant to express an intermediate size between D and E class vehicles, while the W denoted a worldwide platform. The platform was developed by both Ford and Jaguar engineers, and debuted in the Lincoln LS sedan.
A less-expensive variant known as DEW Lite was originally to be used for the 2005 Ford Mustang, but the platform was significantly redesigned to become the Ford D2C platform instead.
and here is the word from Wikipedia on the Ford Dc2 Platform;
The Ford D2C platform (for "D-class 2-door coupe" and also known as DC2 and S197) is Ford's newest global rear-wheel driveautomobile platform.
The platform basics are a MacPherson strut suspension in front and 3-link solid axle in the rear with a Panhard rod. The 2007 high performance Special Vehicle Team (SVT) Mustang variation, called the Shelby GT500, will not include an SVT-designed independent rear suspension, but will also have the solid rear axle. Engines include a 4.0 L V6, Ford's Modular 4.6 L V8, and a supercharged 5.4 L Modular V8 in the GT500.
Considered a new platform by Ford Motor Company D2C is loosely based on the Ford DEW platform which served as the basis for the Lincoln LS, Ford Thunderbird, and Jaguar S-Type[font=arial][size=1]. The 2005 S197 Mustang was originally designed to use a "Lite" version of the DEW98 platform, but while that plan was eventually scrapped as too expensive, most D2C platform development completed prior to that decision was retained. This led to the carryover of several DEW98 chassis components. These components include the floor pans, portions of the [/size
ORIGINAL: TheRebel
If I remember correctly the Lincoln LS out handled the BMW in 2000 and the revised LS did it again in 2003. It was built on the DEW platform developed by Jaguar. I also thought I read somewhere that the Mustang uses a modified DEW platform that is shortened and minus the IRS. Point being is that if that is true then I would expect the Mustang could be built to out handle some of the older bimmers. However, the new BMW may have a new platform (I don’t know) so it may take more to make a stang run with a modern one but I would still think it is possible. It just takes money. For the 30K we have in savings, I’d say we have a chance to beat a BMW and still come out way ahead financially. [align=left][/align]
If I remember correctly the Lincoln LS out handled the BMW in 2000 and the revised LS did it again in 2003. It was built on the DEW platform developed by Jaguar. I also thought I read somewhere that the Mustang uses a modified DEW platform that is shortened and minus the IRS. Point being is that if that is true then I would expect the Mustang could be built to out handle some of the older bimmers. However, the new BMW may have a new platform (I don’t know) so it may take more to make a stang run with a modern one but I would still think it is possible. It just takes money. For the 30K we have in savings, I’d say we have a chance to beat a BMW and still come out way ahead financially. [align=left][/align]
[/align]Jump to: navigation, search
[/align]The Ford DEW platform (or DEW98) is Ford Motor Company's midsizerear wheel driveautomobile platform. The D/E nomenclature was meant to express an intermediate size between D and E class vehicles, while the W denoted a worldwide platform. The platform was developed by both Ford and Jaguar engineers, and debuted in the Lincoln LS sedan.
A less-expensive variant known as DEW Lite was originally to be used for the 2005 Ford Mustang, but the platform was significantly redesigned to become the Ford D2C platform instead.
and here is the word from Wikipedia on the Ford Dc2 Platform;
The Ford D2C platform (for "D-class 2-door coupe" and also known as DC2 and S197) is Ford's newest global rear-wheel driveautomobile platform.
The platform basics are a MacPherson strut suspension in front and 3-link solid axle in the rear with a Panhard rod. The 2007 high performance Special Vehicle Team (SVT) Mustang variation, called the Shelby GT500, will not include an SVT-designed independent rear suspension, but will also have the solid rear axle. Engines include a 4.0 L V6, Ford's Modular 4.6 L V8, and a supercharged 5.4 L Modular V8 in the GT500.
Considered a new platform by Ford Motor Company D2C is loosely based on the Ford DEW platform which served as the basis for the Lincoln LS, Ford Thunderbird, and Jaguar S-Type[font=arial][size=1]. The 2005 S197 Mustang was originally designed to use a "Lite" version of the DEW98 platform, but while that plan was eventually scrapped as too expensive, most D2C platform development completed prior to that decision was retained. This led to the carryover of several DEW98 chassis components. These components include the floor pans, portions of the [/size
03-31-2008, 05:48 AM
#22
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twisties?
The whole thing really dosen't accomodate a live axle as if it was designed for one.
03-31-2008, 06:21 AM
#23
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twisties?
I'm sure that crash standards had a lot to do with the length of the UCA. Can't be having a spear shooting through the floorpan into an out-of-position rear seat occupant.
(I still need to crawl underneath and take a few measurements to see what the geometry numbers actually are and how they vary.)
Norm
(I still need to crawl underneath and take a few measurements to see what the geometry numbers actually are and how they vary.)
Norm
03-31-2008, 06:31 PM
#25
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twisties?
Nope. Not even a crude pencil and paper sketch. 
Mostly I just work with the geometry and other dimensionsin mathematical terms anyway - spreadsheets that I've developed (sort of, anyway)and sometimes one of the commercially available suspension softwares. I've done analysis for a living for most of my adult life with very little direct exposure to CAD, courtesy of having worked at relatively large firms.
Norm
Norm
Mostly I just work with the geometry and other dimensionsin mathematical terms anyway - spreadsheets that I've developed (sort of, anyway)and sometimes one of the commercially available suspension softwares. I've done analysis for a living for most of my adult life with very little direct exposure to CAD, courtesy of having worked at relatively large firms.
Norm
Norm
04-01-2008, 05:41 PM
#26
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Posts: 284
RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twisties?
ORIGINAL: timothyrw
the simple answer is that you can't, and at minimum, you need to do everything.
have you ever driven an m3 or any bmw for that manner?
i have, and the mustang will never have the handling feel of an m3.
the simple answer is that you can't, and at minimum, you need to do everything.
have you ever driven an m3 or any bmw for that manner?
i have, and the mustang will never have the handling feel of an m3.
04-01-2008, 10:23 PM
#27
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 770
RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twisties?
and what about the 5 seconds it took to reply? now you are up to 10!
ORIGINAL: crazystylin
The 5 seconds that it took me to read this response are 5 seconds of my life I will never get back.
ORIGINAL: timothyrw
the simple answer is that you can't, and at minimum, you need to do everything.
have you ever driven an m3 or any bmw for that manner?
i have, and the mustang will never have the handling feel of an m3.
the simple answer is that you can't, and at minimum, you need to do everything.
have you ever driven an m3 or any bmw for that manner?
i have, and the mustang will never have the handling feel of an m3.
04-02-2008, 11:45 AM
#28
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location:
Posts: 284
RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twisties?
ORIGINAL: timothyrw
and what about the 5 seconds it took to reply? now you are up to 10!
and what about the 5 seconds it took to reply? now you are up to 10!
ORIGINAL: crazystylin
The 5 seconds that it took me to read this response are 5 seconds of my life I will never get back.
ORIGINAL: timothyrw
the simple answer is that you can't, and at minimum, you need to do everything.
have you ever driven an m3 or any bmw for that manner?
i have, and the mustang will never have the handling feel of an m3.
the simple answer is that you can't, and at minimum, you need to do everything.
have you ever driven an m3 or any bmw for that manner?
i have, and the mustang will never have the handling feel of an m3.
LOL!
04-02-2008, 03:47 PM
#29
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twisties?
Mostly I just work with the geometry and other dimensionsin mathematical terms anyway - spreadsheets that I've developed (sort of, anyway)and sometimes one of the commercially available suspension softwares. I've done analysis for a living for most of my adult life with very little direct exposure to CAD, courtesy of having worked at relatively large firms.
Just out of curiousity what is suspension software is available? The last time I did graphic suspension design was with punch cards on an IBM mainframe.
04-02-2008, 04:34 PM
#30
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twisties?
I've watched with interest the way this has gone..... The question asked is one that doesn't have an actual answer because there are so many variables.
What I can tell you is this.... I autocross, and a Mustang with good dampers, springs and swaybars can and has outrun equally well driven cars on the same type of tires (r-comps), but the cars are things like E36 M3's, RX8's, 350Z's, etc.
So what's it take to "out-run" some of the cars in the twisties? Not a lot. The S197 is a very good starting platform that simply needs a few tweaks to add grip and crispness.
If anyone lives in or around PA (or is passing through), I'd be happy to show you just what a very mild, but well thought out and "built" suspension on an S197 can do. For the rest I'll point you here: http://scca.com/documents/resultfile...ts%2011.14.pdf Those are the results for 2007 SCCA Solo Nationals. I won FS in a Shebly GT (again, pretty much a Mustang GT with some bolt-on's). The car is not bone stock, I have some tweaks on it like better dampers, adjustable bar endlinks, lighter wheels, and R-comps (but then again all the Stock and SP category cars have R-comps too, so that's a wash). The car has the stock FR3 springs and bars which I can't change by rule. I would changes springs if I could, but the bars work great--I'd just replace the rear with a like size hollow one (which we are working on).
I think the results speak for themselves. And, fwiw one of the B-stock drivers is a Mazda Development driver and is a 2 time Solo Champion as well as the Pro MX5 Cup Champion, which got him a ride for the year in one of Mazda's factory Speed World Challenge Touring Cars. B-stock is a "faster" class than F-stock is....
What I can tell you is this.... I autocross, and a Mustang with good dampers, springs and swaybars can and has outrun equally well driven cars on the same type of tires (r-comps), but the cars are things like E36 M3's, RX8's, 350Z's, etc.
So what's it take to "out-run" some of the cars in the twisties? Not a lot. The S197 is a very good starting platform that simply needs a few tweaks to add grip and crispness.
If anyone lives in or around PA (or is passing through), I'd be happy to show you just what a very mild, but well thought out and "built" suspension on an S197 can do. For the rest I'll point you here: http://scca.com/documents/resultfile...ts%2011.14.pdf Those are the results for 2007 SCCA Solo Nationals. I won FS in a Shebly GT (again, pretty much a Mustang GT with some bolt-on's). The car is not bone stock, I have some tweaks on it like better dampers, adjustable bar endlinks, lighter wheels, and R-comps (but then again all the Stock and SP category cars have R-comps too, so that's a wash). The car has the stock FR3 springs and bars which I can't change by rule. I would changes springs if I could, but the bars work great--I'd just replace the rear with a like size hollow one (which we are working on).
I think the results speak for themselves. And, fwiw one of the B-stock drivers is a Mazda Development driver and is a 2 time Solo Champion as well as the Pro MX5 Cup Champion, which got him a ride for the year in one of Mazda's factory Speed World Challenge Touring Cars. B-stock is a "faster" class than F-stock is....