The Koni's are coming, the Koni's are coming!!!!
03-30-2010, 01:14 PM
#21
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
With suspension there are “many ways to skin a cat” and I skin mine quite a bit differently than you do. My background and experience is quite a bit different than yours is so that makes perfect sense.
From your other posts I detect your impression of what an acceptable spring rate is for street use is quite a bit higher than mine. Sure, I could tolerate the sort of spring rates that you refer to running on the street, but I would rather not. Not implying anything right or wrong, just different.
I don’t know if you had missed it but I had these questions for you on the previous page. Can you answer these for me?
Are they nitrogen charged shock?
Are the Yellows rebound only or compression and rebound adjustable (looks like the former to me)?
Is the rebound circuit a valve and shim arrangement or bleed orifice design? Do you have a cut away view that you could post?
What spring rate range is the compression set up for?
And what range of springs will the rebound control without having pressure balance issues in the shock/strut?
From your other posts I detect your impression of what an acceptable spring rate is for street use is quite a bit higher than mine. Sure, I could tolerate the sort of spring rates that you refer to running on the street, but I would rather not. Not implying anything right or wrong, just different.
I don’t know if you had missed it but I had these questions for you on the previous page. Can you answer these for me?
Are they nitrogen charged shock?
Are the Yellows rebound only or compression and rebound adjustable (looks like the former to me)?
Is the rebound circuit a valve and shim arrangement or bleed orifice design? Do you have a cut away view that you could post?
What spring rate range is the compression set up for?
And what range of springs will the rebound control without having pressure balance issues in the shock/strut?
Koni's are gas-charged, in I fact don't sell any (and you'd be hard pressed to find any real shock in terms of performance) that aren't gas-charged.
Koni Sports adjust rebound only, they are not linked compression and rebound like D-specs.
Compression damping is not setup for spring rates... Compression damping controls the unsprung weight. Rebound controls the sprung weight and spring rate.
Pressure Balance issue is not a term I'm familiar with. I think you are asking how much spring rate can the Koni Sport handle/what kind of range, is that correct? Well, it's not as simple as a number. But I've personally run springs as high as 325/300 front and rear on Koni Sports and not run out of range. I've also run the very same set of shocks with stock springs. Koni's have a big range. The fronts, at full stiff offer about 4 times as much damping rate as they do @ full soft depending on piston speed--as an example.
What do I run on my cars? Koni Sports, but we now are working with a set of AST 4100's. They are not super stiff either, but they are mono-tubes and adjustable. I am trying these (and so far so good) because I was looking for that last little bit over the shortest, sharpest bumps that we see @ our National Championship site which is made of concrete blocks and they aren't all level... think the front straight @ Sebring.
I think Koni Sports are the best dampers available for that price range (AST's are awesome, but not in the same place price wise). I've been very happy with the Koni Sports, as has every customer who has them.
Edited to add: I still have Koni sports on my personal cars. The autox car, the Shelby GT I've been running is someone else's car, it's the one with the AST's on it. Just wanted to put that on record.
And to add this: http://www.koni-na.com/pdf/tech.pdf
The shocks for the S197 Mustang are the ones shown as "B" on page 5....
Last edited by Sam Strano; 03-30-2010 at 01:17 PM.
03-30-2010, 09:48 PM
#22
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 187
03-30-2010, 11:58 PM
#23
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: MI
Posts: 59
I never assume.
I think I covered that I am aware of this on multiple occasions. Can we try and avoid moving this toward something confrontational? I’m just asking questions here. I realize that your average poster does not have the background to “challenge” suspension theory and I would appreciate it if you did not read my questions as attacks.
That is why I asked, I wanted to know what level of technology I am looking at here.
How are the adjustment made internally? Needle? Bypass port, preload? Do you have a cut away or pictures of the internals? A picture of the rebound valve and associated hardware would be very telling. How about the compression circuit. Is it a shimmed valve? Any pics of the assembly? Where is the floating piston located?
Not where I come from.
This will prevent you from being able to answer any more of my questions then. It also means you don't understand anything about this statement you made below. You think you do, but you have one more level of understanding to learn before you will be able to make statements like that and have them hold any weight:
I was hoping you would be able to provide the Mustang specific setup data that I was looking for. Thanks for your time.
First, what's tolerable is very different to everyone.
you'd be hard pressed to find any real shock in terms of performance) that aren't gas-charged.
Koni Sports adjust rebound only
Compression damping is not setup for spring rates... Compression damping controls the unsprung weight. Rebound controls the sprung weight and spring rate.
Pressure Balance issue is not a term I'm familiar with.
I think you are asking how much spring rate can the Koni Sport handle/what kind of range, is that correct? Well, it's not as simple as a number. But I've personally run springs as high as 325/300 front and rear on Koni Sports and not run out of range. I've also run the very same set of shocks with stock springs. Koni's have a big range. The fronts, at full stiff offer about 4 times as much damping rate as they do @ full soft depending on piston speed--as an example.
03-31-2010, 10:17 AM
#24
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
Given.
I'm less sure about the second part of this. It doesn't take many lb/in/sec at a high piston speed to generate a force equal to half an inch of spring compression (assuming that reasonably sane rates are in use for the street duty that most cars here actually see, anyway). Optimum points for ride quality and grip don't occur at the same % of critical damping, so dialing out some damping can improve ride quality, though at some sacrifice in performance. It's probably more apparent with dampers in which the bump and rebound are linked, certainly so if the older-design adjustable Tokicos that I have on two other cars (OE springs on one, stiffer aftermarket ones on the other) are any indication. I can't ever remember noticing the ride quality during an autocross run even with the stiffer springs on that car and the damping cranked full stiff. But out on the street in either of those cars is a somewhat different story depending on just what the pavement condition happens to be.
Is my autocross car undersprung for that application? Almost certainly. But it has to be reasonably acceptable at more than just that activity - and just to drive the point home, my wife has used that car as her DD for a couple of weeks at a time for one reason or another.
Maybe I'm all wet with this . . . but to me 'Sport' is at neither the rental-fleet stock nor the all-out race end of the spectrum (instead, falling somewhere in between). Probably comparable to where most people's choices in S197 Mustang springs fall when running OE springs is not a class ruleset requirement.
I'm going to have to crack open my Dixon when I get home, maybe after I get some dangling little piece of new car administrative stuff taken care of. "Pressure balance" didn't ring any bells here either, but then again I'm just a structural guy who hasn't looked that deep into how dampers work..
Norm
Damping rate, which has almost no effect on ride quality…..if they were properly sprung for track use or at least the loads they will see at the track (drivers pace).
Yes you can back off the rebound which will free the movement of the shock a little bit (no compression adjustment correct?) but it will do absolutely nothing for the spring rate which determines the majority of how “soft” it feels and even if you could back the compression down it would only be the low speed circuit which is not what is in play when hitting sharp edge bumps.
I’m not saying they can not be changed for street driving. Just that they can’t be changed enough to consider it a selling feature.
Yes you can back off the rebound which will free the movement of the shock a little bit (no compression adjustment correct?) but it will do absolutely nothing for the spring rate which determines the majority of how “soft” it feels and even if you could back the compression down it would only be the low speed circuit which is not what is in play when hitting sharp edge bumps.
I’m not saying they can not be changed for street driving. Just that they can’t be changed enough to consider it a selling feature.
Is my autocross car undersprung for that application? Almost certainly. But it has to be reasonably acceptable at more than just that activity - and just to drive the point home, my wife has used that car as her DD for a couple of weeks at a time for one reason or another.
Maybe I'm all wet with this . . . but to me 'Sport' is at neither the rental-fleet stock nor the all-out race end of the spectrum (instead, falling somewhere in between). Probably comparable to where most people's choices in S197 Mustang springs fall when running OE springs is not a class ruleset requirement.
I'm going to have to crack open my Dixon when I get home, maybe after I get some dangling little piece of new car administrative stuff taken care of. "Pressure balance" didn't ring any bells here either, but then again I'm just a structural guy who hasn't looked that deep into how dampers work..
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 03-31-2010 at 10:40 AM.
03-31-2010, 11:04 AM
#25
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
......I can't ever remember noticing the ride quality during an autocross run even with the stiffer springs on that car and the damping cranked full stiff. But out on the street in either of those cars is a somewhat different story depending on just what the pavement condition happens to be.............
Norm
Norm
One day last year I did leave them at full hard for the drive home as it was raining and I was tired and lazy. It wasn't too long before I stopped in the rain and softened them off - my kidneys couldn't take full hard on the streets.
03-31-2010, 11:35 AM
#26
Former Sponsor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
I never assume.
I think I covered that I am aware of this on multiple occasions. Can we try and avoid moving this toward something confrontational? I’m just asking questions here. I realize that your average poster does not have the background to “challenge” suspension theory and I would appreciate it if you did not read my questions as attacks.
That is why I asked, I wanted to know what level of technology I am looking at here.
How are the adjustment made internally? Needle? Bypass port, preload? Do you have a cut away or pictures of the internals? A picture of the rebound valve and associated hardware would be very telling. How about the compression circuit. Is it a shimmed valve? Any pics of the assembly? Where is the floating piston located?
Not where I come from.
This will prevent you from being able to answer any more of my questions then. It also means you don't understand anything about this statement you made below. You think you do, but you have one more level of understanding to learn before you will be able to make statements like that and have them hold any weight:
I was hoping you would be able to provide the Mustang specific setup data that I was looking for. Thanks for your time.
I think I covered that I am aware of this on multiple occasions. Can we try and avoid moving this toward something confrontational? I’m just asking questions here. I realize that your average poster does not have the background to “challenge” suspension theory and I would appreciate it if you did not read my questions as attacks.
That is why I asked, I wanted to know what level of technology I am looking at here.
How are the adjustment made internally? Needle? Bypass port, preload? Do you have a cut away or pictures of the internals? A picture of the rebound valve and associated hardware would be very telling. How about the compression circuit. Is it a shimmed valve? Any pics of the assembly? Where is the floating piston located?
Not where I come from.
This will prevent you from being able to answer any more of my questions then. It also means you don't understand anything about this statement you made below. You think you do, but you have one more level of understanding to learn before you will be able to make statements like that and have them hold any weight:
I was hoping you would be able to provide the Mustang specific setup data that I was looking for. Thanks for your time.
There are some pretty smart folks here, and you've got a lot of use confused. I don't know "where you come from", and I'm not about to get into an argument with you over this stuff. You have a lot of basic questions considering you claim to have such a vast library of knowledge. I even posted a link of a cut-away of a Koni Sport damper for this car, which shows all the information regarding the guts you wanted to know. I'm now not sure you even read my post vs. maybe just skimmed it.
So here it is in a nutshell. You are wrong about a number things, and here they are:
1. That damping doesn't effect ride
2. That 180/170 rates are somehow the end point for a decent ride
3. That compression damping isn't an unsprung weight control, but a spring rate control
4. That you think I don't know what I'm talking about (that's fine, and you entitled to your opinion, but I think you are in the minority there).
Regarding specific data. Sorry, I've tried that route, and been raked over the coals for giving away information for free. Frankly, I run a business. I don't hide things from customers, in fact I'm very open with my informaton to my customers. But I've learned to not spew what I've learned out on the web for all to see for a number of reasons.
04-13-2010, 09:33 PM
#29
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,935
bump!
They're on the way guys. :]
I got an email from Sam this evening notifying me that a package has been shipped! So apparently they've cleared customs and they're on the way for some people. Thank you so much Sam! I'm glad I held out and waited for the Koni's. Sam was great in giving updates throughout this whole process... I have never had a better shopping experience EVER. I'll be sure and post a review when I get them on and the car aligned.
I did have the springs, HD upper strut mounts, and rear shocks installed (on full soft) a few months ago and loved the improvement. I can't wait to get the fronts installed so I can play with the adjustability!
They're on the way guys. :]
I got an email from Sam this evening notifying me that a package has been shipped! So apparently they've cleared customs and they're on the way for some people. Thank you so much Sam! I'm glad I held out and waited for the Koni's. Sam was great in giving updates throughout this whole process... I have never had a better shopping experience EVER. I'll be sure and post a review when I get them on and the car aligned.
I did have the springs, HD upper strut mounts, and rear shocks installed (on full soft) a few months ago and loved the improvement. I can't wait to get the fronts installed so I can play with the adjustability!
