Next Mod Conundrum...
08-22-2010, 07:54 AM
#11
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 757
Not that I'm some sort of Argo-groupie, but I need to wave the +1 flag again...
I always thought, in the most simple way, the more raw power you have the less you need to compensate for lack of power with the gearing. You've got plenty of power, really. I know we all want more, more, more, but those were rear wheel figures you threw out, yes? Ok, that's a plenty. The 3:55s are going to give you more top end range, which makes each gear more usable, which you're going to want badly on track if they're at all like the ones I run. Of course, your local (or most frequented) track is probably going to influence your decision a good deal.
Also, pick up just about any handling/chassis book (or even those diagnosis cheat sheets), and you'll find that for an understeering car, wider front tires is a stock solution. There's nothing laughable about it at all, it's a known remedy; but among us hairy-gents it's probably taboo. There are, of course, other remedies that are less frowned upon, but nothing wrong at all with experimenting with wider fronts.
Conversely, wider rears tend to make your understeer worse (sorry, I know it looks cool to some folks). I suspect you may be caught in the pull of a dual-duty car (drag and road course), but this is one area you should seriously reconsider. As a drag/track car, you'll be making some serious compromises, so lots of thought and flexibility is advised on the compromises you're willing to make. 275s all around is a nice place to be, for track and street.
Finally, I can +1 somebody other than Argo. Sleep mentioned springs and if you're on your stock ones and you beef up the braking capability of the car, you're going to get some really bad brake dive. That in turn is going to lighten the rear, and I'm sure you know what that feels like and does (it's not fun nor pretty). But you list "Saleen suspension" in your sig, yes? That will help, but you'll probably still get some dive until you really beef up the front springs (which are not fun on the street, so...what to do?).
I should also say, I actually think your bike background is going to give you a huge boost. Bikers probably know the "feel" of weight transition far better than your average car driver, and that's pretty much the name of the game on track. One of my favorite driving books is written for motorcyclists. You may know it, Kieth Code's "Twist of the Wrist." There's literally only a half-dozen or so pages in it that don't directly apply to high performance car driving (and it's all at the back, the basics all transfer over). I think you'll do great!
Best,
-j
I always thought, in the most simple way, the more raw power you have the less you need to compensate for lack of power with the gearing. You've got plenty of power, really. I know we all want more, more, more, but those were rear wheel figures you threw out, yes? Ok, that's a plenty. The 3:55s are going to give you more top end range, which makes each gear more usable, which you're going to want badly on track if they're at all like the ones I run. Of course, your local (or most frequented) track is probably going to influence your decision a good deal.
Also, pick up just about any handling/chassis book (or even those diagnosis cheat sheets), and you'll find that for an understeering car, wider front tires is a stock solution. There's nothing laughable about it at all, it's a known remedy; but among us hairy-gents it's probably taboo. There are, of course, other remedies that are less frowned upon, but nothing wrong at all with experimenting with wider fronts.
Conversely, wider rears tend to make your understeer worse (sorry, I know it looks cool to some folks). I suspect you may be caught in the pull of a dual-duty car (drag and road course), but this is one area you should seriously reconsider. As a drag/track car, you'll be making some serious compromises, so lots of thought and flexibility is advised on the compromises you're willing to make. 275s all around is a nice place to be, for track and street.
Finally, I can +1 somebody other than Argo. Sleep mentioned springs and if you're on your stock ones and you beef up the braking capability of the car, you're going to get some really bad brake dive. That in turn is going to lighten the rear, and I'm sure you know what that feels like and does (it's not fun nor pretty). But you list "Saleen suspension" in your sig, yes? That will help, but you'll probably still get some dive until you really beef up the front springs (which are not fun on the street, so...what to do?).
I should also say, I actually think your bike background is going to give you a huge boost. Bikers probably know the "feel" of weight transition far better than your average car driver, and that's pretty much the name of the game on track. One of my favorite driving books is written for motorcyclists. You may know it, Kieth Code's "Twist of the Wrist." There's literally only a half-dozen or so pages in it that don't directly apply to high performance car driving (and it's all at the back, the basics all transfer over). I think you'll do great!
Best,
-j
08-22-2010, 09:01 PM
#12
4th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 1,491
Thanks Philo, lots of good info there.
To address some of the points you made, I certainly don't have any plans on adding HP to the car. But making it faster by removing rotating mass (driveshaft) would be beneficial in virtually any acceleration situation. Ultimately I'm going to do it, because it will make the drivetrain more efficient and lighten the car at the same time but I think based on what I've read here that wheels will be more beneficial.
In regards to a dual duty car, it's not quite the intention. I've only been to the drag strip twice and really am not that concerned with ETs and 60 fts. Sure, it's fun to hit the strip every once in a while but for the most part that's not my cup of tee. I want a well balanced performance car and right now I feel like I'm tipping the scales to the drag world and want to bring it back towards the track world. The advice I've received in this thread will help with that.
Suspension wise, I have the full Saleen Racecraft kit. It includes shocks, struts and springs. I know it's not THE best set up out there, but for my situation it's as extreme as I want to go right now. I drive the car to and from work everyday (50 miles) and have to deal with city traffic and some stop and go. So unfortunately for the next year or so while the car is my DD, I have to keep it somewhat time in the suspension department.
So as it stands right now, I'm feeling confident that the wheels (TRMotorsport MT1) are the way to go. They are nice and light (~20lbs for the 18x9.5), look nice and are in my price range. I want to stay around $300-$325 per wheel. Your comment though that "wider rears tend to make your understeer worse" concerns me a bit though. Would 18x8.s be a better choice for my application?
I've definitely read ToTW. It's a good read with lots of good info. Seems like anytime someone gets into the track scene, it's a recommended read. Any good books about performance driving you recommend?
To address some of the points you made, I certainly don't have any plans on adding HP to the car. But making it faster by removing rotating mass (driveshaft) would be beneficial in virtually any acceleration situation. Ultimately I'm going to do it, because it will make the drivetrain more efficient and lighten the car at the same time but I think based on what I've read here that wheels will be more beneficial.
In regards to a dual duty car, it's not quite the intention. I've only been to the drag strip twice and really am not that concerned with ETs and 60 fts. Sure, it's fun to hit the strip every once in a while but for the most part that's not my cup of tee. I want a well balanced performance car and right now I feel like I'm tipping the scales to the drag world and want to bring it back towards the track world. The advice I've received in this thread will help with that.
Suspension wise, I have the full Saleen Racecraft kit. It includes shocks, struts and springs. I know it's not THE best set up out there, but for my situation it's as extreme as I want to go right now. I drive the car to and from work everyday (50 miles) and have to deal with city traffic and some stop and go. So unfortunately for the next year or so while the car is my DD, I have to keep it somewhat time in the suspension department.
So as it stands right now, I'm feeling confident that the wheels (TRMotorsport MT1) are the way to go. They are nice and light (~20lbs for the 18x9.5), look nice and are in my price range. I want to stay around $300-$325 per wheel. Your comment though that "wider rears tend to make your understeer worse" concerns me a bit though. Would 18x8.s be a better choice for my application?
I've definitely read ToTW. It's a good read with lots of good info. Seems like anytime someone gets into the track scene, it's a recommended read. Any good books about performance driving you recommend?
08-22-2010, 09:33 PM
#13
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
08-22-2010, 09:49 PM
#14
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 757
I think Sleep did up a reading thread once...it had lots of good books. If he doesn't find the link soon I'll try to dig it up.
As for the wider rear comment, I didn't mean that as an absolute comment but as "wider relative to the front." Going wider all around (as in 9.5" on all four corners) won't increase understeer. Going 10" in back and 8" in front would tend to increase understeer (assuming, of course, that you were using the wheel width to mount an appropriately sized tire). Also, keep in mind this general comment is aimed at our cars with their chassis characteristics. We've all seen Porsches with super wide rears and narrow fronts - the Porsche engineers haven't made a mistake (um, obviously). They're dealing with a car that has its engine in the back and a completely different chassis set up.
So, to be clear, on our cars, going wider in the rear than you have in the front will tend to induce greater understeer. Also keep in mind that for most folks driving on the street, they may never notice it. When we speak of understeer like this we're really talking about what the car feels like when it is pushed closer to the limit. On the street few folks ever come close (even the yahoos who think they are). You know this from your bike experience. The street is not an extreme environment. So you may run into folks who will dispute the "wider rear" claim I'm making. Just ask them if they've ever tracked their car. Then ignore them. On the street we can get away with lots of sub-optimal set ups (just think of how many folks drive around with screw-ball alignment, wondering why they're wearing through tires early). That is, we can generate a lot of "in my experience.." that won't apply to the questions you have.
FWIW, I started tracking my car 6 months after I got her (brand new). I drover her for three years as a DD, and I didn't have the little tow-trailer then. So, I had to track her on all-weather tires. Talk about squeal and slid control!
The important thing to me is to enjoy the car. You can do that with pretty well just ensuring your brakes don't give up the ghost (stopping is nice, after all). Everything else can come along when there's enough time and money. I know some guys won't take their car out until "it's all ready," and I'm just not that kind of guy. My dad is like that...keeps talking about how he's going to take his car out to the drag strip "when its ready." It's been years now and nothing. Why wait accumulating parts and not enjoying the damn thing? Makes no sense to me, but maybe that's just me.
From what it looks like, you have a pretty nicely set up car. Get it and yourself out on track, have fun, be safe, and gain experience.
Hope that helps.
Best,
-j
As for the wider rear comment, I didn't mean that as an absolute comment but as "wider relative to the front." Going wider all around (as in 9.5" on all four corners) won't increase understeer. Going 10" in back and 8" in front would tend to increase understeer (assuming, of course, that you were using the wheel width to mount an appropriately sized tire). Also, keep in mind this general comment is aimed at our cars with their chassis characteristics. We've all seen Porsches with super wide rears and narrow fronts - the Porsche engineers haven't made a mistake (um, obviously). They're dealing with a car that has its engine in the back and a completely different chassis set up.
So, to be clear, on our cars, going wider in the rear than you have in the front will tend to induce greater understeer. Also keep in mind that for most folks driving on the street, they may never notice it. When we speak of understeer like this we're really talking about what the car feels like when it is pushed closer to the limit. On the street few folks ever come close (even the yahoos who think they are). You know this from your bike experience. The street is not an extreme environment. So you may run into folks who will dispute the "wider rear" claim I'm making. Just ask them if they've ever tracked their car. Then ignore them. On the street we can get away with lots of sub-optimal set ups (just think of how many folks drive around with screw-ball alignment, wondering why they're wearing through tires early). That is, we can generate a lot of "in my experience.." that won't apply to the questions you have.
FWIW, I started tracking my car 6 months after I got her (brand new). I drover her for three years as a DD, and I didn't have the little tow-trailer then. So, I had to track her on all-weather tires. Talk about squeal and slid control!
The important thing to me is to enjoy the car. You can do that with pretty well just ensuring your brakes don't give up the ghost (stopping is nice, after all). Everything else can come along when there's enough time and money. I know some guys won't take their car out until "it's all ready," and I'm just not that kind of guy. My dad is like that...keeps talking about how he's going to take his car out to the drag strip "when its ready." It's been years now and nothing. Why wait accumulating parts and not enjoying the damn thing? Makes no sense to me, but maybe that's just me.
From what it looks like, you have a pretty nicely set up car. Get it and yourself out on track, have fun, be safe, and gain experience.
Hope that helps.
Best,
-j
Last edited by Philostang; 08-22-2010 at 09:52 PM.
08-23-2010, 01:14 AM
#15
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 64
The Stang is an understeering pig (in stock form) and putting bigger meats on the rear might very well make it worse. At one point in time I considered using smaller tires on the rear to try and loosen it up (don't laugh, there are more than a few cars that turn faster laps with the wider tires on the front).
08-23-2010, 12:09 PM
#16
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
S197steve
Driving an SC equipped car, even mine with only 380 rwhp, you will find that once you can get the power down coming out of a corner your speed goes up faster than a regular GT and thus you have to brake harder to get back down to the correct turn in speed for the next corner. You will notice this in both your gas costs and in effect on your pads.
It is this extra load on the brakes that makes them even more likely to boil the fluid, especially on short tracks.
For the first two seasons I ran KDW2, high performance street tires, size 285/40/18 all round on 9.5 rims and when getting the power down had to be really careful on corner exit, especially in second gear. This season I switched to Nitto NT01 R-comps 275/40/18 all round on the same size rims and found getting the power down earlier and harder was a lot easier. This of course means the the speed before braking is even higher so there is now more load on the brakes and because of the better tires I can brake harder. So far for me the GT500 Brembo front kit has been fine.
I'm also getting my turn in speeds closer to the maximum the car can handle for the corner so this helps reduce the load on the brakes
By the way having the SC is a real blast because there are not too many cars that can out drag me down the straights. There are quite a few that can get through the corners faster than me but I'm working on them.
Driving an SC equipped car, even mine with only 380 rwhp, you will find that once you can get the power down coming out of a corner your speed goes up faster than a regular GT and thus you have to brake harder to get back down to the correct turn in speed for the next corner. You will notice this in both your gas costs and in effect on your pads.
It is this extra load on the brakes that makes them even more likely to boil the fluid, especially on short tracks.
For the first two seasons I ran KDW2, high performance street tires, size 285/40/18 all round on 9.5 rims and when getting the power down had to be really careful on corner exit, especially in second gear. This season I switched to Nitto NT01 R-comps 275/40/18 all round on the same size rims and found getting the power down earlier and harder was a lot easier. This of course means the the speed before braking is even higher so there is now more load on the brakes and because of the better tires I can brake harder. So far for me the GT500 Brembo front kit has been fine.
I'm also getting my turn in speeds closer to the maximum the car can handle for the corner so this helps reduce the load on the brakes
By the way having the SC is a real blast because there are not too many cars that can out drag me down the straights. There are quite a few that can get through the corners faster than me but I'm working on them.
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