Well basically I know nothing about handling/suspension mods, but I do know that my car has a ridiculous amount of understeer. I want to eliminate it, maybe even give it a touch of oversteer. I don't do any kind of real racing, but I like to take corners hard, and the amount of understeer my car has is really dangerous. I don't mind a slightly rougher ride, but I don't want to lower it more then 1". I already have my eyes set on Strano's adjustable swaybars, but is there something else I should be doing? What springs/shocks/struts should I be thinking about when I can get the money together? Panhard bars, strut tower braces? I really don't need anything adjustable because I want to just bolt it up to the car and go, and I really don't want to have to do any kind of permanent modification, in case I go to sell the car later on.

Also, I don't have much money, so a 3K suspension overhaul really isn't really in the budget. Keeping these things in mind, what mods should I be looking at? Thanks for any help.

 

What gives you the impression that it has "a ridiculous amount of understeer"? What's it either doing that you think it shouldn't be doing, or not doing that you think it should? Just how hard are you trying to corner? (Relative to other traffic is probably the only reference you have here.)

Can you describe the situations when it happens or happens at its worst? What specifically, are you doing with the steering wheel, brakes, and/or throttle?

Many times, "ridiculous understeer" is self-inflicted by a driver entering a corner too hot, or trying to brake late and hard and turn simultaneously, or throwing the wheel over as fast as it can physically be cranked over because they started their turn-in too late. This is fairly normal when people start driving harder than they did during their practice driving, or for their road test, so don't take any of this as flame. New drivers to autocross are especially prone to making overdriving errors.

What tires, tire size(s), and inflation pressures are you running? You might find that pressures other than the door sticker numbers (and different, front tires vs back) will help considerably.

Do you know what alignment specs the front wheels are set at?


Norm

 

I concur with Norm on this. When I first started autocrossing, I thought the car plowed like a pig. Eventually I learned how to drive less badly and now the car feels really well balanced (this is on both stock suspension and the current Koni sport/Steeda sport setup). I still have stock swaybars front and rear.

Swaybars, and especially adjustable ones, are a great way to change the balance of a car. Even on some of the lower-level road racing series, driver adjustable swaybars are common. But the "driver mod" is the first thing to work on.

 

I agree, if your tires are inflated properly, and you are entering the turn from a bit on the outside of your lane and turning in at the right time and giving a little push when exiting at the right time, even the stock car was quite fun from my standpoint. Erik

 

Yeah, I am sure alot of it has to do with my driving technique (or lack thereof?), but I still feel like it pushes way too much. Admittedly I should not be taking corners like I do, but hey, that's the fun of having a sporty car. I am working on my driving, trying to get a feel for the car and the road on some local twisties and such, but I have almost gotten into trouble several times because I turn the wheel and the car tries to keep going forward.

I have noticed it alot when trying to blast around a 90* turn and when I try to do donuts.

I am running 235/55/17 Eagle GTs at 32psi all around. People have told me to run 34 up front and 32 out back; can anyone explain how this effects handling?

 

Another vote for Norm here. When I first tried autocross I had exactly the same reaction "this car is an understeering pig". I took out my share of cones by plowing into them when the car wouldn't turn. But with proper instruction and plenty of seat time I've learned a thing or two and cones no longer need fear me.

Now having said that, there are certainly changes that can be made beyond the 'driver mod'. A set of Konis will control the car's mass better. A stiffer rear sway or softer front will go a long way to taming the push. More front end camber (you will need camber plates or crash bolts or slotted struts). Better, stickier tires. The other changes - brace, pan hard bar, lower/upper control arms will make little to no difference here.

My number one piece of advice is get on a skid pad, preferably a wet one. It is an awesome training tool. You are in Ohio. Ohio is a hot bed of motorsports activity. Lots of car clubs. Look at the SCCA website and find your local chapter. Chances are they host autocross events and possibly even driving schools. Contact them and get involved. Good instruction and seat time will improve your car's performance more than any part you could possibly purchase.

 

A few tips here: when you say you are doing donuts I'm going to assume you are in a parking lot, away from cars, light poles, etc. I.e. you are being safe and have space to play around (at least I hope thats the case).

- Best to do this when its wet out - yep...go out in the rain.
- instead of trying to do a tight donut, try to visualize a big circle, like 75-100 feet in diameter. Try to drive that circle
- As you go faster the car will begin to push (understeer), you are past the limit of front traction
- to control the push, open the wheel. That means, instead of trying to turn the wheel more, straighten it, that will allow the front end to bite again
- as soon as the front end bites, blip the throttle, that will bring the rear out
- done properly (takes some practice) you will do a nice drift
- In addition to opening the wheel there are a couple other things to practice
- when the push starts, let up on the gas. Yep - once the car is pushing, more gas = more push. It won't bring the rear around until you can get the front end to bite again (giving throttle while the car is pushing is a very common rookie mistake). Letting up on gas will transfer weight to the front and encourage the fronts to regain traction.
- you can also use your brakes to move weight to the front, when the car begins to push a very slight tap on the brakes will often get the front to bite
- I like to use left foot braking here - the car begins to push and I leave the right foot on the throttle (no pushing, just placed there) and move the left to the brake and just tap it. As the weight moves to the front, the front end bites and then I blip the throttle and the rear end swings out (oversteer).
- with perfect application of throttle you can hang the rear end out all the way around your visual circle.
- Say Yee-Haa....cus this be fun!!!
- A word of caution - you will spin, guaranteed. In fact thats a good thing to learn. When you are past the point of saving it - "Both Feet In". What this means is right foot on brake, depressed hard and left foot on clutch. If you don't get the clutch in you will stall or, in worst case, start heading backwards with an engaged drive train and F up your tranny.

As to your other question about tire pressure: at this point in your driving I'm going to conclude that a change in tire pressure won't make a noticeable difference. But in general the theory is a lower tire pressue will offer more traction because you get a little more rubber on the road and the tread blocks will deform more, generating more heat (to a point, more heat = more traction). So in theory, to help with your understeer, you would lower the front and raise the rear pressures.

 

Argonaut - Good call on the location. OP, whereabouts in Ohio? There are like 5 SCCA regions in Ohio. Going to an autocross is a cheap and extremely safe way to practice driving at (and past) the limits of traction. And there will be plenty of experienced drivers there to help you out. The season is coming to an end but I know we've got two events left down here in Cincinnati so I bet some of the other clubs have a few left as well.

What Argonaut said about unwinding the wheel during understeer is probably the best, although very counter-intuitive, advice for push. If the front tires are sliding sideways, unwinding the wheel will actually cause the car to turn MORE since the front tires can start rolling again. If you're getting a chattering coming through the steering wheel, unwind the wheel immediately.

If you're at all nearby you should come run a Cincy autocross and then I can see what a clean Mustang looks like, because Lord knows mine is never clean!

 

I wouldn't go too far with the lower the front raise the rears. Yesterday I ran my stock BFG KDWS at 35 front 38 rear and the rear was all over the place and not predictably either. It was a huge relief from the understeer that I have gotten at previous events. After dropping the rears down to 35 PSI it became more predictable but it was still all over the place. Which is interesting because I normally run 38f/35r and have always had tons of push, can't get the rear out to save my life. Yesterday it was pushing mid corner and then oversteering quite heavily. "Good show!" was what I heard one of the folks next to me say in the paddock!

Granted, I've only been to 5 events and done about 25-30 runs or so so my experience is very limited with tire pressures. I felt better with 38f/35r than I did at neutral settings.

The entire traction issue could quite possibly be due to the fact that my KDWS are at 1/8" tread remaining and running the shoulders to the valleys in the tread. My last run yesterday was so squirrely and greasy it was almost sickening to drive. This car has never felt so uncomposed in it's life.

OP: Tires, then Sam's front and rear sway bars. Play with the settings to get the drive you desire. I don't like recommending people to just dump money into sway bars without other suspension mods as you can go too far with it (lifting wheels) and ideally sway bars are a tuning device and shouldn't be used to compensate for lack of spring rates and damping. Generally I recommend people pick the springs they wish to run, fix the messed up geometry in the rear from lowering (if using non-stock springs) with an adjustable panhard bar or watts link (preference to the watts), match the dampers (shocks/struts) to the spring rates, then mess with sway bars. That's assuming you've done the necessary mods to get the camber up front you'll need for better cornering and have tires that can support the mods.

 

Wow, thanks for all the advice guys! Didn't expect responses like that for sure. I would love to enter some clubs and etc, but right now my car is about to be torn to pieces for a little 6K dollar accident so anything like that will have to wait like a month. Also, I won't get new tires because I can't afford 2 sets of tires/wheels and I need to be able to drive to school/work in the winter.

On donuts and understeer, I have been experimenting alot with what you guys are saying. Doing donuts is hard for me because even if I break the rear loose first, that open rear end and loose front bring my understeer back all the same. The car would really rather push then kick the rear end out.

Oh, and by the way, I have an auto (just noticed Argonaut talking about me using my clutch properly)

Now I have 2 more big questions:
1. Sam Strano's bars are 35mm up front, 22 out back, and the stock GTs are 34 up front, and 20 out back. Will I really see a significant difference between spending 150 bucks on stock GTs as opposed to 350 for Strano's besides the weight of my wallet?
2. Can anyone give me a brief overview of camber? I used to be big time into RC cars so I have a basic knowledge of it, but now so much how it applies to 1:1 scale cars.