highline

That's why I'll keep buying older and older cars...One day I'll have enough $$ for a car without all this electronic sheet...somewhere near a 69 mach...

PS...Just what we need, "emergency" steer assist for all the damnnn texters that already don't pay attention...and no, I'm not the "get off my grass" old man...I'm 30, just hate texters/drivers (if we can even call it driving anymore)

nemosgt

I have great respect for your experience and technical advice that you have shared over the years, but still beg to disagree with your philosophy.

If you are driving "up there", I hope you have some fear.
Surely nobody is advocating running up against the "nannies" to learn the car's or one's limits. You certainly should not be driving it in such a manner on the street in any case whether the nannies are off or on. If you invoke one of the systems, you've made a mistake. Simple as that. How many young Mustang or Camaro drivers have any real driving skills? It seems like the mere purchase of this type of car automatically makes them a superior driver. How many have autocrossed, done track days, or taken any form of high performance drivjng school such as offered by Bondurant or Ron Fellows. Or even taken their car to an empty lot on a wet or snowy day and learned skid control as you advocate. (excellant idea BTW). Very few, I'm sure. I have done all of these and instruct at a car control school in the area but no way do I drive on the street without the aids on. Do I feel I need them? Do I feel that I am a poorer driver because of them? Certainly not. But it is back-up if I make an error and we are all error prone. I've seen everything and believe me most drivers are not as good as they think, including myself.

As to the failure of any of the systems, the driver is now in no worse position than he was prior to owning a car with them. I agree he should have had training, but how many have? And if he wants training, he will want to do so in a safe area with the systems disconnected and not driving around on the street with the aids off learning his craft at the peril of others.

There are lots of arguments against anti-skid brakes but the advantages of this system far outway the cons. The primary one is the ability to steer the car around an object with the brakes full on. Yes, a skilled driver who can modulate the pedal and with lots of prior practise, may be able to stop a few feet shorter. But when that day comes that you see that truck stopped in front of you, all will go out the window and it's slam on those brakes for all you're worth. And when the collision is inevitable and you turn the wheel with the brakes still full on, you will be so thankful for ABS as the car turns and you avoid the accident.

These are back-up systems folks and when you want to play silly-bugger or do track work they can be disabled. And don't tell the insurance company after the accident that you had anything turned off. Okay.

I hope that many of the young impressionable and inexperienced drivers of high powered cars who read this thread will think twice before assuming they are expert drivers who have no need of these aids to driving. Keep them turned on on the street, regardless. And take a high performance driving school if you can. Remember the old adage, pride goeth before the fall.

Be careful out there and have fun.

Cheers.

Norm Peterson

That's precisely my concern, that people will on average drive a little faster and with less regard for consequences once they start to believe from all the advertising that these various systems will keep them out of trouble. Those of us with pre-electronic-intervention experience or with autocross/hillclimb/track day seat time know better, that these systems can help keep you out of trouble should you suffer a lapse in judgement. There's a difference.

People will use technological advances to let their behavior slide a bit. Couple of examples. Failure to come to a complete stop seems near-universal these days with most vehicles having automatic transmissions, compared with when many cars had 3-speed manuals and low gear was not synchronized. TC will let people get overconfident in bad going.


Not intentionally, but whether that happens also depends on the system's calibration. No, I'm not advocating driving every corner intentionally at 0.7 lat-g or beyond. But I ought to be able to start rolling into the throttle at 0.5-ish without the electronics getting antsy.

I can only speak from my own experience here, and had it been less successful or had there been less of it to base opinion on I'd probably be more willing to accept these things. Maybe even if I'd come into cars more from a drag-race/street race/top speed orientation instead of being influenced by a book titled "The Red Car", traditional sports cars, and sports racers.


Fixed that for you , and the answer is still "only a few". The variety of experience generally isn't there. At age 20, or even 30, mine wasn't either.


The people who most need to understand this, don't.





Norm

nemosgt

Norm, I think we agree more than disagree. I certainly can see your point that people seem to drive more aggresively now days. Probably thinking that they can stop on a dime with the ABS and handle any situation with stability control and T/C and "who gets flats anymore". And there is always the air-bags. Six or eight of 'em. Hell, you don't even have to turn on your headlights or dim the rear-view mirror at night now. You see it up here in the winter with the 4-wheel drive people in the ditches. There is no substitute for knowing what to do when one gets understeer or oversteer on an off-ramp, stability control or not. The laws of physics still apply.

Maybe it's time to improve the drivers now instead of the cars.

I think we've just about run the course with this thread, eh. Very interesting to hear everyone's views.

Take care all.
Cheers.

110011100

Newb here just trying to get in on the conversation...

My 2011 GT is the first manual car I've ever had and by FAR the fastest car I've ever driven. I have every intention of getting to know this car to the point where I would want traction control off a good amount of the time. However, until I get to that point, I am glad to leave it on when I'm on the road.

There are a lot of roundabouts in my area (so fun), and last week I was powering out of the turn and squaked into 3rd at about 70. The back end kicked out a little, but traction control shorted it out instantly. Not saying that I couldn't recover from it with traction control off, because I've very confident that I could. It's just that in the case that I'm wrong, and I fail to recover from it, I don't want to learn that lesson on the street. I'd rather learn it on a track.

Mark

chain1

Back to the skip-shift feature, I've had my 2011 C/S for a couple of weeks now and have yet to encounter it. I think having 3.73 gears helps because 2k RPM comes up very fast and I've never shifted below that. My point is that while some argue that it's intrusive (and I agree, I hate that it exists) it has been a complete non issue for me in all different types of driving.

hawkeye18

You get used to going to opposite lock very quickly. How quickly you go to oppo lock determines whether you do a bad-*** drift... or spin out like a tool. lol

nemosgt

I was just thinking the same thing today. Coincidence I suppose. I was thinking of all the posts I've seen where people have complained vehemently about the system while others like you claim to have never encountered it. I get it once in a while when I am just cruising along. You have 3.73 and I have 3.55. Maybe, as you suggest, those who see it most often have 3.31 gears.

In any case, it is quite benign by guiding you into 4th as compared to the older Camaros that left you in neutral hunting madly for fourth. So I don't plan to get rid of it. You won't encounter it during track days anyway and also soon somebody will have a cheap fix.

Cheers.

nemosgt

Remember to look where you want to go and don't over correct or you'll be facing the way you came.

Drive safe guys.

Cheers.

110011100

lmao

I have plenty of experience with controlling a slide from all the winters in my Contour and Fusion - doing handbrake turns in the winter. I'm just not used to driving anything this brutally powerful, plus I've only had it for 3 weeks.