Turbos, hard to maintain / hard on the engine?
10-24-2004, 02:53 AM
#41
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 22
RE: Turbos, hard to maintain / hard on the engine?
Yes, I know you have a 5.0, but I made the comparison between 4.6 KB superchargers and 4.6 twin turbo kits. If you make the same comparison between 5.0 KB superchargers and 5.0 turbo kits, you will get a similar result. However, I've spent too much time already trying to demonstrate the similarities and differences and I'm not trying to cram anything down anyone's throat. Bottom line, we all have our preferences and this debate will probably be going on long after we quit discussing it. Good luck on your car; I'm sure you will be happy with it whatever you choose to do.
ORIGINAL: Obsol3te
... Who said we were talking about a 4.6 kit?
I was refering to my 5.0(well 4.9)
And THANK YOU Isaac, I didn't know much about the subject and was WAITING for someone to chime in
ORIGINAL: Turbocharged
The KB pricing you are quoting is for the 5.0 kit. We are talking about 4.6 kits and the pricing we used is correct according to the KB price list. The turbo kit price for the 5.0 cars is down around $4500 (single turbo), and just like the twin kit, it comes with injectors, mass air, fuel pump, headers, exhaust pipes, Jet Hot coating, etc., etc., etc., which do not come with the KB. By the time you add all the stuff you don't get with the KB, the KB is more expensive by a good margin. Again, compare "apples to apples" and the turbo kit wins the performance and value comparison hands down.
The KB pricing you are quoting is for the 5.0 kit. We are talking about 4.6 kits and the pricing we used is correct according to the KB price list. The turbo kit price for the 5.0 cars is down around $4500 (single turbo), and just like the twin kit, it comes with injectors, mass air, fuel pump, headers, exhaust pipes, Jet Hot coating, etc., etc., etc., which do not come with the KB. By the time you add all the stuff you don't get with the KB, the KB is more expensive by a good margin. Again, compare "apples to apples" and the turbo kit wins the performance and value comparison hands down.
... Who said we were talking about a 4.6 kit?
I was refering to my 5.0(well 4.9)
And THANK YOU Isaac, I didn't know much about the subject and was WAITING for someone to chime in
10-24-2004, 03:10 AM
#42
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 22
RE: Turbos, hard to maintain / hard on the engine?
ISAAC,
Your points are well put, but are not entirely correct:
Turbo's maintenance free? I'd like to see what shape your bearings, shaft (non sexual), & impellers are in. It is a really good idea to rebuild your turbo's at least every two years.
I know of cars who have been running the same turbo for 4+ years, and I'm sure there are others out there with even more time on them. Do the cars with turbos from the factory have to rebuild them every two years? Why would you just automatically rebuilt a turbo when there is nothing wrong with it? As long as you keep up with regular engine oil changes and keep the air intake filter clean, the turbos should last much longer than that.
How can you say turbo's are free power? That is a stupid statement. What you saying that it wont take away hp if you put a turbo on your exhaust. I want to see dyno results of a turbocharger on a 4 cylinder engine all 4 cylinders piping into the turbo then exiting through the remaining exhaust out performing the same 4 cyinder with all exhaust pipes coming together and exiting into the atmosphere. You cannot route the turbo to the intake manifold to give it postive boost either. & If what you say is true then there will be no loss in hp.
I agree with you to a point.....nothing is "free", and the turbos do represent a restriction when not used to make intake boost, but why would anyone do that? Further, it is a proven fact that turbos are more efficient than any supercharger out there, and the loss of power due to restriction of the exhaust in a turbo application is much less than the loss of power due to the parasitic drag of superchargers.
Turbo's cause more heat in the exhaust manifold because there is more restriction. On the intake side they make more heat because the heat transfers from the turbine rotor (hot side impeller) is a part of a shaft that connects to the compressor wheel (cold side impeller). Not to mention the heat travels through metal, which is what the turbocharger is mostly composed of. Header wrap is not always a good thing. Too much heat will cause structural failure. Perhaps a heat shield to keep the heat from damaging other engine components. & Shame on you if you don't have an oil cooler on an oil cooled turbo. Some people don't like the idea that if you turn the car off w/o letting it idle for a bit to cool the turbo you will risk cracking the housing or charing the lubrication. Turbo timers are made for this purpose, but they still don't like the idea of the car running while they aren't around it. I personally liked it. Leave your car & walk into somewhere 30 secs later the car turns off. People look over & they don't see anyone in it.
The heat you describe is part of what makes a turbo work. Hot air expands, hence more volume, therefore more turbine speed, so that's not necessarily bad. As far as heat in the engine compartment goes, any good turbo kit will be designed and build to manage that heat, i.e., ceramic coating, heat shields, etc.
94GTNick, Some turbo systems aren't designed well, hence cannot be pushed super hard. Think about this: how do you think a car such as the Porsche 911 Turbo managed to continuously push their car hard for 24 hours in the Le Manns?
Exactly. A well designed turbo will handle sustained power levels, so look for a well-designed turbo system.
As far as costs. If both supercharger & turbo kit were designed well. Yes the turbo would cost more. A turbo kit REQUIRES more, specifically on the exhaust side piping, flanges, & the wastegate. With superchargers, headers can be thinner since there is less heat on the exhaust side. A properly built turbo header will have some decently thick walls to help keep from failure.
You're ignoring the example I already gave.....if both superchager and turbo kits are designed well and equally equipped, the supercharger costs more. A well designed turbo kit will use no less than 14 ga. steel tubing, which is much thicker than most headers out there (usually 16 or 18 ga.), and when ceramic coated, will stand up to a lot of abuse. At least one turbo company (HP Performance) out there guarantees their headers and tubing for life.....that says a lot for their confidence in their product.
Your points are well put, but are not entirely correct:
Turbo's maintenance free? I'd like to see what shape your bearings, shaft (non sexual), & impellers are in. It is a really good idea to rebuild your turbo's at least every two years.
I know of cars who have been running the same turbo for 4+ years, and I'm sure there are others out there with even more time on them. Do the cars with turbos from the factory have to rebuild them every two years? Why would you just automatically rebuilt a turbo when there is nothing wrong with it? As long as you keep up with regular engine oil changes and keep the air intake filter clean, the turbos should last much longer than that.
How can you say turbo's are free power? That is a stupid statement. What you saying that it wont take away hp if you put a turbo on your exhaust. I want to see dyno results of a turbocharger on a 4 cylinder engine all 4 cylinders piping into the turbo then exiting through the remaining exhaust out performing the same 4 cyinder with all exhaust pipes coming together and exiting into the atmosphere. You cannot route the turbo to the intake manifold to give it postive boost either. & If what you say is true then there will be no loss in hp.
I agree with you to a point.....nothing is "free", and the turbos do represent a restriction when not used to make intake boost, but why would anyone do that? Further, it is a proven fact that turbos are more efficient than any supercharger out there, and the loss of power due to restriction of the exhaust in a turbo application is much less than the loss of power due to the parasitic drag of superchargers.
Turbo's cause more heat in the exhaust manifold because there is more restriction. On the intake side they make more heat because the heat transfers from the turbine rotor (hot side impeller) is a part of a shaft that connects to the compressor wheel (cold side impeller). Not to mention the heat travels through metal, which is what the turbocharger is mostly composed of. Header wrap is not always a good thing. Too much heat will cause structural failure. Perhaps a heat shield to keep the heat from damaging other engine components. & Shame on you if you don't have an oil cooler on an oil cooled turbo. Some people don't like the idea that if you turn the car off w/o letting it idle for a bit to cool the turbo you will risk cracking the housing or charing the lubrication. Turbo timers are made for this purpose, but they still don't like the idea of the car running while they aren't around it. I personally liked it. Leave your car & walk into somewhere 30 secs later the car turns off. People look over & they don't see anyone in it.
The heat you describe is part of what makes a turbo work. Hot air expands, hence more volume, therefore more turbine speed, so that's not necessarily bad. As far as heat in the engine compartment goes, any good turbo kit will be designed and build to manage that heat, i.e., ceramic coating, heat shields, etc.
94GTNick, Some turbo systems aren't designed well, hence cannot be pushed super hard. Think about this: how do you think a car such as the Porsche 911 Turbo managed to continuously push their car hard for 24 hours in the Le Manns?
Exactly. A well designed turbo will handle sustained power levels, so look for a well-designed turbo system.
As far as costs. If both supercharger & turbo kit were designed well. Yes the turbo would cost more. A turbo kit REQUIRES more, specifically on the exhaust side piping, flanges, & the wastegate. With superchargers, headers can be thinner since there is less heat on the exhaust side. A properly built turbo header will have some decently thick walls to help keep from failure.
You're ignoring the example I already gave.....if both superchager and turbo kits are designed well and equally equipped, the supercharger costs more. A well designed turbo kit will use no less than 14 ga. steel tubing, which is much thicker than most headers out there (usually 16 or 18 ga.), and when ceramic coated, will stand up to a lot of abuse. At least one turbo company (HP Performance) out there guarantees their headers and tubing for life.....that says a lot for their confidence in their product.
10-24-2004, 12:27 PM
#43
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 3,451
RE: Turbos, hard to maintain / hard on the engine?
Shaggy, Turbocharged claimed they were maintenance free.
Ob, I don't come to the pipes,boost, & juice too often. :P
Turbocharged: I never said it was necessary, I said it was a good idea. I recommended rebuilding them every 2 years, I guess I want to keep my turbos in good shape. If I don't rebuild them I at least take it appart & check it out. checking for the chared oil buildups, checking for cracks, checking for a loose impeller, & checking the impeller blades.
I am fully aware of turbochargers being more efficient than belt driven superchargers. Although your statement of being more efficient than ANY supercharger is not correct. Keep in mind a supercharger is not just a belt drivin. Allthough still not free horsepower, nor is it constant power, there is an electric supercharger I have seen that uses up no engine power during boost. See http://www.boosthead.com/product.php?id=18 for further details. Whether you recharge the batteries with off solar panels, alternator, or the battery recharger in your garage.
I never said heat was a bad thing on the exhaust side, I said heat will transfer from the exhaust side to intake side. I know heat is necessary to power the turbo, the hotter the air the more power to the turbo, but it is a bad part if some of the heat from it gets to the intake part of the turbo. Most turbo kits aren't designed good as far as thermal management goes.
I saw your example on the kits, but you are missing the point on cost. I'll try to get this one too you. A TURBO KIT NEEDS EXHAUST PIPES TO WORK. They also require wastegates with standard turbo's.
Ob, I don't come to the pipes,boost, & juice too often. :P
Turbocharged: I never said it was necessary, I said it was a good idea. I recommended rebuilding them every 2 years, I guess I want to keep my turbos in good shape. If I don't rebuild them I at least take it appart & check it out. checking for the chared oil buildups, checking for cracks, checking for a loose impeller, & checking the impeller blades.
I am fully aware of turbochargers being more efficient than belt driven superchargers. Although your statement of being more efficient than ANY supercharger is not correct. Keep in mind a supercharger is not just a belt drivin. Allthough still not free horsepower, nor is it constant power, there is an electric supercharger I have seen that uses up no engine power during boost. See http://www.boosthead.com/product.php?id=18 for further details. Whether you recharge the batteries with off solar panels, alternator, or the battery recharger in your garage.
I never said heat was a bad thing on the exhaust side, I said heat will transfer from the exhaust side to intake side. I know heat is necessary to power the turbo, the hotter the air the more power to the turbo, but it is a bad part if some of the heat from it gets to the intake part of the turbo. Most turbo kits aren't designed good as far as thermal management goes.
I saw your example on the kits, but you are missing the point on cost. I'll try to get this one too you. A TURBO KIT NEEDS EXHAUST PIPES TO WORK. They also require wastegates with standard turbo's.
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