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S197 Handling Section For everything suspension related, inlcuding brakes, tires, and wheels.

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Old 03-09-2012, 02:06 PM   #11
moochman4life
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dude, the hawk hp+ pads simply aren't up to a heavy car and aggressive driver on the track. i ran those pads and not only did they wear out quickly, they also faded after only a few laps to the point i would have to take a cool down lap around the track. granted my track is hard on brakes.

i had dot 4 fluid in the car with the hawk pads, the pedal still had feel (though it was a bit spongier than when the pads were cool) but the car didn't stop. i was having a combination of fluid overheat and pad overheat apparently but the pedal always came back firm after the brakes cooled pointing to the pads as the main failure. i swapped to carbotech RP2 front compound and XP8 rear on the track and i use the bobcat pads on the street and leave the xp8 in the rear.

on the track the rp2, which is comparable to the XP10 but the rp2 is an endurance pad for longer life, and the XP 8 rears are tremendous. not one single sign of fade after a 20 minute session and at the end of the day the rp2 pads still looked brand new. on the street the xp8 rears do squeal and the bobcats do too, but no where near as bad as the HP+ pads i was running on track and street. i also swapped to brembo lcf 600+ fluid at the same time and i highly recommend that too, the pedal stays firm and activation starts at the same place lap one to lap 10. i found the other dot 4 fluid didn't necessarily boil, but when hot the pedal traveled further before the brakes activated due to compression of the fluid. that gave me issues with heel toe in the corners due to the brake pedal being lower than the throttle YMMV.

i would never recommend those hawk pads to anyone, they just aren't up to track duty if you are aggressive. i would recommend the carbotechs to anyone. if you will swap between fronts for track and street you will either need to run bobcats on the street or swap your front rotors or you will run into material compatibility issues.

edit: it's also worth noting that when talking to the carbotech owners son (i forget his name, Jim?) he mentioned that the HP+ and the bobcat pads were in the same heat range of 800-degrees max before they would fade. the Rp2 and XP10 and XP8 are all good for up to 1600. i also forgot to mention i used half the HP+ pad life in about 300 miles of street driving and one track day of four ~20min sessions.

Also i found it interesting that the HP+ pads would fade after 2-3 hot laps on my car. the rp2 pads and xp8 pads were still squealing, indicating they weren't up to ideal operating temps yet, on the 3rd lap pulling comparable lap times that i ran on the HP+ pads.
Man! What track were you running at and what were the ambient/track temps? That almost seems way too fast to be blowing through pads.
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Old 03-09-2012, 03:31 PM   #12
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Not really a fair comparison; the HP+ is NOT a track pad regardless of what they suggest; it's a very aggressive street pad or a very entry level track pad for light/slow cars. Once you learn to brake hard and late, it wouldn't have a chance on a 3600lb+ car with 444hp (or even one with 315hp). Compare Carbotech XP10s to something like the Hawk DTC-60 for a fair comparison; the Hawks held up every bit as well and lasted longer, but they aren't as easy to modulate and looked to be machining my rotors for me.

Point being, not an apples to apples comparison. Also, I have had a lot of Bobcats (for street use) and never had any issue with them squeaking? Not sure what the deal is there.

Most people on track aren't all that aggressive with braking, at least from what I've seen. As far as track driving, I think that's one of the last things that guys getting faster calibrate themselves too; just how hard and how late you can brake. This also is hard on brakes, as you might imagine. I went through a set of XP10s up front in four track events last year, and I even have brake cooling etc. Just how it goes. I also have over 3000 miles of track driving in various cars over the past 15 years, and while I'm far from an expert I do try and get the most out of the car. Once I wear through my next set of XP10s I'll probably switch to Brembos up front for more heat capacity and hopefully more pad life.

Also, have not tried brembo fluid but Motul RBF600 is pretty fantastic as well. I'd swear it firms up the pedal vs. other fluids, but even if it doesn't it removes fluid as a possible issue for your brakes on track. Good stuff.
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:52 PM   #13
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I don't want to change rotors so due to pad compound compatibility I think Carbotech is my best option since i can use different Carbotech pads on the same rotor. Don't think any other brand has this advantage.
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:16 PM   #14
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Man! What track were you running at and what were the ambient/track temps? That almost seems way too fast to be blowing through pads.
eagles canyon raceway in slidell, texas. it is very hard on tires and brakes. i also trail brake and use the brakes to rotate the car quicker in a couple places on the track. temps were 40~60ish high, very cool for texas.

http://www.eaglescanyon.com/2008/facilities.php

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz0QKgbRKKw

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Old 03-09-2012, 06:20 PM   #15
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Not really a fair comparison; the HP+ is NOT a track pad regardless of what they suggest; it's a very aggressive street pad or a very entry level track pad for light/slow cars. Once you learn to brake hard and late, it wouldn't have a chance on a 3600lb+ car with 444hp (or even one with 315hp). Compare Carbotech XP10s to something like the Hawk DTC-60 for a fair comparison; the Hawks held up every bit as well and lasted longer, but they aren't as easy to modulate and looked to be machining my rotors for me.

Point being, not an apples to apples comparison. Also, I have had a lot of Bobcats (for street use) and never had any issue with them squeaking? Not sure what the deal is there.

Most people on track aren't all that aggressive with braking, at least from what I've seen. As far as track driving, I think that's one of the last things that guys getting faster calibrate themselves too; just how hard and how late you can brake. This also is hard on brakes, as you might imagine. I went through a set of XP10s up front in four track events last year, and I even have brake cooling etc. Just how it goes. I also have over 3000 miles of track driving in various cars over the past 15 years, and while I'm far from an expert I do try and get the most out of the car. Once I wear through my next set of XP10s I'll probably switch to Brembos up front for more heat capacity and hopefully more pad life.

Also, have not tried brembo fluid but Motul RBF600 is pretty fantastic as well. I'd swear it firms up the pedal vs. other fluids, but even if it doesn't it removes fluid as a possible issue for your brakes on track. Good stuff.
the HP+ were billed and sold to me as a track pad, i would agree that they are not track capable, which is why i said i wouldn't recommend them. some people like the other hawk pads you mention. I'm not buying that brand any more personally because if i tell someone what I do, that i drive hard, and i need a track pad, they say this is what you need, and then it fails miserably I tend to hold a $350 grudge lol.

the carbotechs on the other hand have done everything promised, very happy. as for the squeaking, i'm not sure i didn't expect them to squeak but they do in the last few feet of a stop. actually now that i think about it, its probably the brake cooling ducts keeping them cool. if i plug them up on the street they might not.
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:43 PM   #16
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I've run Hawk HP+ and Porterfield R4-S pads with good results when I was a slower driver, mostly when I track these days it's at MSR Houston but I used to run TWS in College Station quite a bit. Both pad choices were adequate with brake cooling ducts and a good bleed with Motul RBF600. Last year I switched to running Hawk HT-10s up front and the HPSs in the back (HPS front for street). This seemed to work well but the HT-10s ate rotors, particularly when I got lazy and left them on the car for a week of street driving, which I wouldn't recommend. I've always felt my brakes were somewhat marginal compared to cars I've owned in the past but with proper maintenance and adjusting my driving (I tend to be hard on brakes) I made them work on track.

This year I've stepped up to GT500 Brembos and haven't really decided what compounds to run yet but I may start out with HP+ F/R and go from there but I have a feeling this may not satisfy me.

I also would note that I tried EBC Blue Stuff on the front the last time I went to the track which were supposedly a track pad, they failed miserably. Luckily I came to a rest before the dirt berm after exiting the tracking at around 100mph backwards (my drawers had to be cleaned out after that one). The next day I was back on track, though, using my HT-10s up front that had a little life left in them and worked flawlessly.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:49 AM   #17
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All good info guys, thanks
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:08 PM   #18
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My experience with these pads very much mirrors DPE's: Carbotech Bobcats are a great street pad, never had them squeal. XP10 are a great track pad but squeal like hell on the street. Very easy on the rotors, great pedal feel, never fade but don't last long and are expensive. I've found the Carbotechs to be the most fussy pad when it comes to bedding. With some other pads like Ferodo, Hawk and CL there is practically no bedding required - just brake hard a few times, let them cool and you are good to go. With Carbos sometimes it takes several bedding sessions to clear up judder.

Hawks on the other hand are a little cheaper and easier to find. The HT-10 and DTC series are very good pads that last a long time but when cold they are very abrasive to the rotors, in fact at night I've seen sparks fly off them when stomped on while cold.

I've used the Ferodo DS2500 quite a bit on the rear. I think its a good rear pad but I wouldn't use them on the fronts. Its actually a very good dual purpose pad, if you put them in the rear you can just leave them in all the time. i've experienced little to no squeal on the street. In fact, now that I think about it, they are kind of the perfect rear pad.
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Old 03-12-2012, 03:36 AM   #19
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My experience with these pads very much mirrors DPE's: Carbotech Bobcats are a great street pad, never had them squeal. XP10 are a great track pad but squeal like hell on the street. Very easy on the rotors, great pedal feel, never fade but don't last long and are expensive. I've found the Carbotechs to be the most fussy pad when it comes to bedding. With some other pads like Ferodo, Hawk and CL there is practically no bedding required - just brake hard a few times, let them cool and you are good to go. With Carbos sometimes it takes several bedding sessions to clear up judder.

Hawks on the other hand are a little cheaper and easier to find. The HT-10 and DTC series are very good pads that last a long time but when cold they are very abrasive to the rotors, in fact at night I've seen sparks fly off them when stomped on while cold.

I've used the Ferodo DS2500 quite a bit on the rear. I think its a good rear pad but I wouldn't use them on the fronts. Its actually a very good dual purpose pad, if you put them in the rear you can just leave them in all the time. i've experienced little to no squeal on the street. In fact, now that I think about it, they are kind of the perfect rear pad.
carbotech offers pre-bedded race pads, that is how i bought mine., you still have to transfer material, but it beats having to try and get them up to 1600 degrees for bedding. you guys should try the RP2, longer pad life with xp10 stopping power.
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Old 07-02-2012, 05:58 PM   #20
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I just got back from a weekend at the new Atlanta Motorsports Park Track in Dawsonville, GA with my 12 boss. I just switched from HP+ to carbotech XP8 and XP10 (R/F). I had the HP+ in the shelby and just swapped them over to the boss for sebring a few months ago, but they are really kind of like kids toys for any stopping from 100+. AMP is not a really fast track or particularly hard on brakes, but it does have a few good stops and one stop from about ~120-30 going into turn one.

My real limitation with the carbotechs now is the factory tire.

It was a ton of fun and I may go out there again with track guys in August.
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Old 07-02-2012, 05:58 PM
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