Improve Stock Suspension
06-27-2011, 07:09 AM
#21
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
I would at least pick a tire size that's common (i.e. made by several tire mfrs rather than just a couple) and a wheel size (especially width & offset) that properly supports it and fits under the sheetmetal. Even if you don't get them right away, keep them in mind while you're putting the rest of the combination together.
By 'goals' . . . and I'd like these to be your own thoughts, not just something that you read on the internet.
What do you want it to be able to do better than it does right now?
Or not do that it does do?
This is a technically-oriented forum (like the S197 Handling one), so most of the technical advice isn't going to be appearance-oriented. Plenty of visual mods actually detract from performance of one sort or another. As an example, a car on most staggered tire/wheel setups tends to understeer a little more than it would on a 'square' setup with all four wheels and tires the same. Never mind that you probably wouldn't care for the appearance of at least one of my preferences anyway.
All cars will roll as you describe. All you can do is limit it (springs and sta-bars), or limit how fast it develops (shocks/struts). But I'm going to guess that the amount of roll you're getting in the Mustang isn't because anything in it is too soft or "weak" - but because your experience as a passenger while growing up hasn't involved all that much hard cornering. With a little more "seat time", the amount of roll in a stock S197 GT is not only not bothersome, it's usually not even that noticeable when you're staying smoothly on your line through whatever
turn(s).
Expect a few questions, such as "under what conditions are you finding the back end "slipping out"?" As in, what are you doing with the steering wheel and particularly with the throttle? Understand that with street tires you aren't going to be able to go directly to WOT while you're still doing much cornering.
I urge you to go find an autocross or a Street Survival course and get to know your car under conditions that are much more controlled than the street. There's quite a bit more to learning how to drive fast besides stomping on the pedals and throwing the car into the turns, and you can learn a lot about steering and throttle control in 2nd gear at 30 - 40 mph when you're hardly ever going straight.
Meanwhile, you can tinker with the tire pressures a bit and make the car understeer a little less and make it a little more resistant to "slipping out". Try about 3 psi more than sticker psi up front and maybe a psi less in the rear (I am assuming that the sound system brings a little weight, but not up into the 200-lb range).
Norm
By 'goals' . . . and I'd like these to be your own thoughts, not just something that you read on the internet.
What do you want it to be able to do better than it does right now?
Or not do that it does do?
This is a technically-oriented forum (like the S197 Handling one), so most of the technical advice isn't going to be appearance-oriented. Plenty of visual mods actually detract from performance of one sort or another. As an example, a car on most staggered tire/wheel setups tends to understeer a little more than it would on a 'square' setup with all four wheels and tires the same. Never mind that you probably wouldn't care for the appearance of at least one of my preferences anyway.
All cars will roll as you describe. All you can do is limit it (springs and sta-bars), or limit how fast it develops (shocks/struts). But I'm going to guess that the amount of roll you're getting in the Mustang isn't because anything in it is too soft or "weak" - but because your experience as a passenger while growing up hasn't involved all that much hard cornering. With a little more "seat time", the amount of roll in a stock S197 GT is not only not bothersome, it's usually not even that noticeable when you're staying smoothly on your line through whatever
turn(s).
Expect a few questions, such as "under what conditions are you finding the back end "slipping out"?" As in, what are you doing with the steering wheel and particularly with the throttle? Understand that with street tires you aren't going to be able to go directly to WOT while you're still doing much cornering.
I urge you to go find an autocross or a Street Survival course and get to know your car under conditions that are much more controlled than the street. There's quite a bit more to learning how to drive fast besides stomping on the pedals and throwing the car into the turns, and you can learn a lot about steering and throttle control in 2nd gear at 30 - 40 mph when you're hardly ever going straight.
Meanwhile, you can tinker with the tire pressures a bit and make the car understeer a little less and make it a little more resistant to "slipping out". Try about 3 psi more than sticker psi up front and maybe a psi less in the rear (I am assuming that the sound system brings a little weight, but not up into the 200-lb range).
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 06-27-2011 at 07:33 AM.
06-27-2011, 08:28 AM
#22
Wheels are actually very easy to get correct, just LOTS of choices. Head out to Tire Rack or AM to name a couple and find something you like.
Tires are a bit different matter and comes down to #1 on my list above, so read it again. Then..... spend and hour and read choosing a new tire and focus on two things. The first being your needs as a driver. Do you...?
DD only
DD but like to get a good dig from a stop
DD but like the occasional twisty
DD but dig rippin' the twisties
Do you drive in lots of rain?
Do you drive in the snow?
Do you live down a 25 mile dirt driveway that is always muddy?
Tires are really not that hard to understand for a steet car, so read up a bit and get back to us.
Jazzer
Tires are a bit different matter and comes down to #1 on my list above, so read it again. Then..... spend and hour and read choosing a new tire and focus on two things. The first being your needs as a driver. Do you...?
DD only
DD but like to get a good dig from a stop
DD but like the occasional twisty
DD but dig rippin' the twisties
Do you drive in lots of rain?
Do you drive in the snow?
Do you live down a 25 mile dirt driveway that is always muddy?
Tires are really not that hard to understand for a steet car, so read up a bit and get back to us.
Jazzer
06-27-2011, 08:55 AM
#23
I would at least pick a tire size that's common (i.e. made by several tire mfrs rather than just a couple) and a wheel size (especially width & offset) that properly supports it and fits under the sheetmetal. Even if you don't get them right away, keep them in mind while you're putting the rest of the combination together.
By 'goals' . . . and I'd like these to be your own thoughts, not just something that you read on the internet.
What do you want it to be able to do better than it does right now?
Or not do that it does do?
This is a technically-oriented forum (like the S197 Handling one), so most of the technical advice isn't going to be appearance-oriented. Plenty of visual mods actually detract from performance of one sort or another. As an example, a car on most staggered tire/wheel setups tends to understeer a little more than it would on a 'square' setup with all four wheels and tires the same. Never mind that you probably wouldn't care for the appearance of at least one of my preferences anyway.
All cars will roll as you describe. All you can do is limit it (springs and sta-bars), or limit how fast it develops (shocks/struts). But I'm going to guess that the amount of roll you're getting in the Mustang isn't because anything in it is too soft or "weak" - but because your experience as a passenger while growing up hasn't involved all that much hard cornering. With a little more "seat time", the amount of roll in a stock S197 GT is not only not bothersome, it's usually not even that noticeable when you're staying smoothly on your line through whatever
turn(s).
Expect a few questions, such as "under what conditions are you finding the back end "slipping out"?" As in, what are you doing with the steering wheel and particularly with the throttle? Understand that with street tires you aren't going to be able to go directly to WOT while you're still doing much cornering.
I urge you to go find an autocross or a Street Survival course and get to know your car under conditions that are much more controlled than the street. There's quite a bit more to learning how to drive fast besides stomping on the pedals and throwing the car into the turns, and you can learn a lot about steering and throttle control in 2nd gear at 30 - 40 mph when you're hardly ever going straight.
Meanwhile, you can tinker with the tire pressures a bit and make the car understeer a little less and make it a little more resistant to "slipping out". Try about 3 psi more than sticker psi up front and maybe a psi less in the rear (I am assuming that the sound system brings a little weight, but not up into the 200-lb range).
Norm
By 'goals' . . . and I'd like these to be your own thoughts, not just something that you read on the internet.
What do you want it to be able to do better than it does right now?
Or not do that it does do?
This is a technically-oriented forum (like the S197 Handling one), so most of the technical advice isn't going to be appearance-oriented. Plenty of visual mods actually detract from performance of one sort or another. As an example, a car on most staggered tire/wheel setups tends to understeer a little more than it would on a 'square' setup with all four wheels and tires the same. Never mind that you probably wouldn't care for the appearance of at least one of my preferences anyway.
All cars will roll as you describe. All you can do is limit it (springs and sta-bars), or limit how fast it develops (shocks/struts). But I'm going to guess that the amount of roll you're getting in the Mustang isn't because anything in it is too soft or "weak" - but because your experience as a passenger while growing up hasn't involved all that much hard cornering. With a little more "seat time", the amount of roll in a stock S197 GT is not only not bothersome, it's usually not even that noticeable when you're staying smoothly on your line through whatever
turn(s).
Expect a few questions, such as "under what conditions are you finding the back end "slipping out"?" As in, what are you doing with the steering wheel and particularly with the throttle? Understand that with street tires you aren't going to be able to go directly to WOT while you're still doing much cornering.
I urge you to go find an autocross or a Street Survival course and get to know your car under conditions that are much more controlled than the street. There's quite a bit more to learning how to drive fast besides stomping on the pedals and throwing the car into the turns, and you can learn a lot about steering and throttle control in 2nd gear at 30 - 40 mph when you're hardly ever going straight.
Meanwhile, you can tinker with the tire pressures a bit and make the car understeer a little less and make it a little more resistant to "slipping out". Try about 3 psi more than sticker psi up front and maybe a psi less in the rear (I am assuming that the sound system brings a little weight, but not up into the 200-lb range).
Norm
NITTO Extreme Performance NT555 275/40-18 Tires
That's the tires I was looking at with staggered Bullitt wheels.
I really don't tend to slide out unless I'm turning during a take off or if it rains because I don't like to push it that hard on the road where it's not a more controlled setting. But an autocross course would be interesting to do. I might look into that.
But as for the psi in the tires.. I have an air pressure sensor in my tire which sets off an annoying little orange light on my dash >:[ if i lower the air pressure so would that be enough to set it off?
But from the other sport cars I have ridden in the Mustang seems to have a bit more roll or at least a faster roll than the others. So I would like to make the roll a little slower. And overall a stiffer ride. If I'm understanding you correctly?
06-27-2011, 09:23 AM
#24
Retired Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 9,235
The NT555 is a nice mid-line Summer performance tire. They will be fine in the rain and give you probably 25K mileage easily. If your get into AX or start diggin' the twisties, like yours truly.... your gonna want a softer tire. In my case, I have two sets of wheels for both Winter and Summer driving/AX/HPDE days. This is kinda on the extreme side and even considering a third set for AX and HPDE days only!
Let me ask you this.... Is it reasonable to keep your OEM tires/wheels for everyday driving and get something more aggressive for performance in Summer and if you get into AX? You may not, but at least consider it, as you can get a very nice performance tire for grip, while maintaining a Winter-friendly OEM tire you have now. Depending on the grip you want, a good launch tire and a good cornering tire are, unfortunately, two different directions. Different in the same way that the suspension for both also require different directions.
To keep it simple, the NT555's you are considering are going to offer improved Summer grip over whatever OEM tires you currently run.
LMK what you think
Jazzer
Let me ask you this.... Is it reasonable to keep your OEM tires/wheels for everyday driving and get something more aggressive for performance in Summer and if you get into AX? You may not, but at least consider it, as you can get a very nice performance tire for grip, while maintaining a Winter-friendly OEM tire you have now. Depending on the grip you want, a good launch tire and a good cornering tire are, unfortunately, two different directions. Different in the same way that the suspension for both also require different directions.
To keep it simple, the NT555's you are considering are going to offer improved Summer grip over whatever OEM tires you currently run.
LMK what you think
Jazzer
06-27-2011, 09:41 AM
#25
Yeah I can always keep them and will keep as much as I can in case I need to return it to stock for any reason. And I probably will like AX as I love to drive through the corners. It's a lot of fun but I would like to be able to have nice wheels and tires for every day driving as I hate the stock wheels and tires appearance and performance wise. Just right now two sets are not feasible, money wise.
but I would like to be able to have nice wheels and tires for every day driving as I hate the stock wheels and tires appearance and performance wise. Just right now two sets are not feasible, money wise.
06-27-2011, 10:29 AM
#26
Retired Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 9,235
Well, if you get new wheels, you are gonna need new tires for them anyway, so just keep your OEM ones for the time being.
I recommend you go out and try some AX or HPDE (High Performanc Driving Events) days. Take your car exactly as it is now and see if you like it. If you do like it, or love it like me, go 5 or 6 more times just as your car is now. THEN... you will likely want more than what an NT555 will give you. In such a case, I might recommend you look at some softer Nitto series of tires or maybe the Michelin PS2 that I run on my Winter wheels. They are VERY nice cornering tire, yet are fine in the wet. You need to drive more conservatively than now in the wet, but seems like you need to do that anyway 
Do some AX events PRIOR to looking into new wheels/tires to see if you want to go this direction, in terms of performance.
Jazzer
I recommend you go out and try some AX or HPDE (High Performanc Driving Events) days. Take your car exactly as it is now and see if you like it. If you do like it, or love it like me
, go 5 or 6 more times just as your car is now. THEN... you will likely want more than what an NT555 will give you. In such a case, I might recommend you look at some softer Nitto series of tires or maybe the Michelin PS2 that I run on my Winter wheels. They are VERY nice cornering tire, yet are fine in the wet. You need to drive more conservatively than now in the wet, but seems like you need to do that anyway Do some AX events PRIOR to looking into new wheels/tires to see if you want to go this direction, in terms of performance.
Jazzer
06-27-2011, 10:42 AM
#27
Well, if you get new wheels, you are gonna need new tires for them anyway, so just keep your OEM ones for the time being.
I recommend you go out and try some AX or HPDE (High Performanc Driving Events) days. Take your car exactly as it is now and see if you like it. If you do like it, or love it like me, go 5 or 6 more times just as your car is now. THEN... you will likely want more than what an NT555 will give you. In such a case, I might recommend you look at some softer Nitto series of tires or maybe the Michelin PS2 that I run on my Winter wheels. They are VERY nice cornering tire, yet are fine in the wet. You need to drive more conservatively than now in the wet, but seems like you need to do that anyway
Do some AX events PRIOR to looking into new wheels/tires to see if you want to go this direction, in terms of performance.
Jazzer
I recommend you go out and try some AX or HPDE (High Performanc Driving Events) days. Take your car exactly as it is now and see if you like it. If you do like it, or love it like me
, go 5 or 6 more times just as your car is now. THEN... you will likely want more than what an NT555 will give you. In such a case, I might recommend you look at some softer Nitto series of tires or maybe the Michelin PS2 that I run on my Winter wheels. They are VERY nice cornering tire, yet are fine in the wet. You need to drive more conservatively than now in the wet, but seems like you need to do that anyway Do some AX events PRIOR to looking into new wheels/tires to see if you want to go this direction, in terms of performance.
Jazzer
yeah I'm really interested in the AX now that it has been brought to mind. Lol. I'm gonna look up a place near me now.Thanks for all your help. I think out of all the people that I have seen post on here, you seem to be the funniest and one of the most friendly
and I love your car btw. I wanted a white one.. LUCKY! :P
06-27-2011, 10:46 AM
#29
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
But an autocross course would be interesting to do. I might look into that.
But as for the psi in the tires.. I have an air pressure sensor in my tire which sets off an annoying little orange light on my dash >:[ if i lower the air pressure so would that be enough to set it off?
Norm
06-27-2011, 10:50 AM
#30
In both of those situations you have more than enough power to loop it, which you will do if you let it. About all I can say is that it is possible to develop a "feel" for when even just a little more throttle is going to be trouble.
Do. And don't let any rain scare you off - running in the wet will be exactly what you need to develop throttle control skills.
TPMS is only required to throw a light if a tire is more than 25% underinflated, and somewhere around 26 psi seems to be where that happens. Under most reasonable circumstances you wouldn't want to be running that low.
Norm
Do. And don't let any rain scare you off - running in the wet will be exactly what you need to develop throttle control skills.
TPMS is only required to throw a light if a tire is more than 25% underinflated, and somewhere around 26 psi seems to be where that happens. Under most reasonable circumstances you wouldn't want to be running that low.
Norm
And yeah I can do that. I just need to find a place. Lol.