are 4:10's with a Vortech too much?
05-12-2007, 10:05 PM
#22
Retired Mod
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,658
RE: are 4:10's with a Vortech too much?
ORIGINAL: fordfanboy
That is a great and realistic number. The vortech canned tune is based on the 6200 factory rev limiter. These centrif's really wake up after 3800 rpm and on the factory limiter setting, it's almost impossibel to see over 9 psi. Have to bump upthe fatory limiter and pull the thing to at least 6500-6800 to see the kit pulley produce a solid 11 psi. It's possible to even hit 12 with some delicate tuning, good gas, and spinning the car up in the 7K range.
The average RWHP on the vortech tune is 390-410 rwhp. Tuners lean the tune out a little, bump up the limiter, make some changes to the a/f curves and injector slopes and can get up to 40 more rwhp depending on some some gas and timing issues.
The next step is to pulley down and then it's a simple matter of getting 470+ numbers.
ORIGINAL: Stkjock
The average RWHP on the vortech tune is 390-410 rwhp. Tuners lean the tune out a little, bump up the limiter, make some changes to the a/f curves and injector slopes and can get up to 40 more rwhp depending on some some gas and timing issues.
The next step is to pulley down and then it's a simple matter of getting 470+ numbers.
The canned tune claims 450FWHP.... I think a good tuner (which I believe I have) can pull 50-60 FWHP more from the H.O. kit on the stock kit's pully.
This guy has no reason to BS.... maybe the dyno is not calibrated properly or set to read high so the shop looks good I dont know... lieu910 is giving us what he got... maybe garbage in garbage out... but I believe him.
05-12-2007, 10:07 PM
#23
3rd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 556
RE: are 4:10's with a Vortech too much?
ORIGINAL: fordfanboy
That is a great and realistic number. The vortech canned tune is based on the 6200 factory rev limiter. These centrif's really wake up after 3800 rpm and on the factory limiter setting, it's almost impossibel to see over 9 psi. Have to bump upthe fatory limiter and pull the thing to at least 6500-6800 to see the kit pulley produce a solid 11 psi. It's possible to even hit 12 with some delicate tuning, good gas, and spinning the car up in the 7K range.
The average RWHP on the vortech tune is 390-410 rwhp. Tuners lean the tune out a little, bump up the limiter, make some changes to the a/f curves and injector slopes and can get up to 40 more rwhp depending on some some gas and timing issues.
The next step is to pulley down and then it's a simple matter of getting 470+ numbers.
ORIGINAL: Stkjock
I buy the numbers....
the skepttisim is that your number is on the high side and dnyos can be set up to read high to make the tuner look good. also the MD or DJ issue creeps in as well. DJ's typically read about 8-12% higher from what I've read then the MD. just my .02
my Vortech H.O. made 435 on a MD @ 6350 hitting 10.2 PSI... and the power was still climbing!!
I buy the numbers....
the skepttisim is that your number is on the high side and dnyos can be set up to read high to make the tuner look good. also the MD or DJ issue creeps in as well. DJ's typically read about 8-12% higher from what I've read then the MD. just my .02
my Vortech H.O. made 435 on a MD @ 6350 hitting 10.2 PSI... and the power was still climbing!!
The average RWHP on the vortech tune is 390-410 rwhp. Tuners lean the tune out a little, bump up the limiter, make some changes to the a/f curves and injector slopes and can get up to 40 more rwhp depending on some some gas and timing issues.
The next step is to pulley down and then it's a simple matter of getting 470+ numbers.
I should have added, I also have CMCV delete plates, Mac Pro-Chamber and axle backs. I doubt those account for much though.
05-12-2007, 10:19 PM
#24
I ♥ Acer
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Posts: 1,527
RE: are 4:10's with a Vortech too much?
ORIGINAL: lieu910
You are contradicting yourself. My car did not make the 470 with the Vortech tune, and I am not professing to know more than Sutton Performance. I am not questioning their ability, or trying to disprove their efforts. I'm just telling you what my car dyno'd period. I am simply reporting the information given to me, and you felt inclined to "politely" call me a liar. In response to that kind of attitude - you can bet I'll address it.
My statements are fact based - i.e., my car, and the specific data pulled from it. I suppose it's possible the shop could have been dishonest, but I have no reason to suspect that. The owner of the shop is Mike Post who is a well known and respected tuner in the Mustang community in the Chicago area. Mike has become a great friend, and has proven to me on numerous occasions that he is a man of integrity.
I have a post at MF asking the Vortech guys what they are producing on the dyno. I have only 1 reply at last check and it was 455 whp, very close to mine (actually 467 whp, I called my wife and had her dig it out). The difference in 12 hp is minimal and can be explained by different a/f ratios, individual dyno's, timing, temperature etc. Another post here accounts for having 438 on a Mustang Dyno, which typically dyno less than the DJ. You sound like a fairly well informed person, so I'm sure you understand all those variables. Based on just those two accounts, my numbers appear to be in the vicinity.
Next time you "politely" call someone a liar and openly refuse to accept proving data as validation of their claim - don't be surprised when they take some offense.
No hard feelings on this end.
ORIGINAL: fordfanboy
No Vortech owners over at MF (or ANY forum) is making or have ever made 470 RWHP on the vortech tune at 9 psi. Sure you aren't confusing fwhp? Also, are you absoutely positve your shop didn't replace the pulley? I'm talking about 9 psi which is made onthe kit included 3.61 pulley.
F' it - I'm not going to argue with you. You can post a dyno sheet or whatever, it doensn't mean squat and doesn't show your pulley.
I'll just base my opinion on the fact that Sutton Performance (who BTW has the worlds fastest stock motor vortech and was the first to get an S197 in the 9's) wasn't able to make 470 rwhp on pump gas on the basic kit. So I guess you know a lot more than they do.
You said and I quote - "making about 9 psi with it though when we tuned it. The Vortech tune is very conservative. I think we pulled another 15-20 hp out of the tune."
That means you are saying that the Vortech supplied tune made 450 rwhp at 9 psi. BS any way you slice it. You talk about psi numbers like you know something but it's obvious when you say 'lot's of guys are getting these numbers at 9-10 psi" that you don't realize that there is more to making HP than the psi level. BTW - centri, turbos, TS, and roots are not all the same HP at the same psi levels.
I was still trying to be nice when I said I had a hard time with the numbers and still answered your question but if you're going to be a dick, then I'll call BS.
ORIGINAL: lieu910
Please, I have better things to do than BS about dyno numbers. I'd be happy to post the dyno sheet tomorrow when I get off duty.
The shop that did my install is very experienced with Vortech and has not had any 3V cars with the HO kit under 400 hp canned tune or not. Sounds like you're poo-poo on the Vortechs, which is no skin off my nose. Go to modualrfords.com. Lots of aftercooled Vortech guys there all making about what I do, some making more.
ORIGINAL: fordfanboy
I have never heard of a single person getting more the 400 rwhp out of the H/O kit with the vortech tune.
It took me 14 psi to get 526 rwhp on race gas with 26º of timing and I made 470-480'ish on pump gas with 17º of timing. This was at 14 psi (3.31 pulley)
Frankly, I have a hard time buying your making 470 at 9 psi.
I ran 4.10 gears and never ever had a problem crossing the beams in 4th. Viking is dead on - around 6200-6500 rpm is where you'll be depending on how and where you shift.
But, I have to say, if you really want to increase your times, get rid of the darn street tires and run some ET Streets. You're only going to hurt your 60's adding 4.10's to street tires.
I have never heard of a single person getting more the 400 rwhp out of the H/O kit with the vortech tune.
It took me 14 psi to get 526 rwhp on race gas with 26º of timing and I made 470-480'ish on pump gas with 17º of timing. This was at 14 psi (3.31 pulley)
Frankly, I have a hard time buying your making 470 at 9 psi.
I ran 4.10 gears and never ever had a problem crossing the beams in 4th. Viking is dead on - around 6200-6500 rpm is where you'll be depending on how and where you shift.
But, I have to say, if you really want to increase your times, get rid of the darn street tires and run some ET Streets. You're only going to hurt your 60's adding 4.10's to street tires.
Please, I have better things to do than BS about dyno numbers. I'd be happy to post the dyno sheet tomorrow when I get off duty.
The shop that did my install is very experienced with Vortech and has not had any 3V cars with the HO kit under 400 hp canned tune or not. Sounds like you're poo-poo on the Vortechs, which is no skin off my nose. Go to modualrfords.com. Lots of aftercooled Vortech guys there all making about what I do, some making more.
F' it - I'm not going to argue with you. You can post a dyno sheet or whatever, it doensn't mean squat and doesn't show your pulley.
I'll just base my opinion on the fact that Sutton Performance (who BTW has the worlds fastest stock motor vortech and was the first to get an S197 in the 9's) wasn't able to make 470 rwhp on pump gas on the basic kit. So I guess you know a lot more than they do.
You said and I quote - "making about 9 psi with it though when we tuned it. The Vortech tune is very conservative. I think we pulled another 15-20 hp out of the tune."
That means you are saying that the Vortech supplied tune made 450 rwhp at 9 psi. BS any way you slice it. You talk about psi numbers like you know something but it's obvious when you say 'lot's of guys are getting these numbers at 9-10 psi" that you don't realize that there is more to making HP than the psi level. BTW - centri, turbos, TS, and roots are not all the same HP at the same psi levels.
I was still trying to be nice when I said I had a hard time with the numbers and still answered your question but if you're going to be a dick, then I'll call BS.
My statements are fact based - i.e., my car, and the specific data pulled from it. I suppose it's possible the shop could have been dishonest, but I have no reason to suspect that. The owner of the shop is Mike Post who is a well known and respected tuner in the Mustang community in the Chicago area. Mike has become a great friend, and has proven to me on numerous occasions that he is a man of integrity.
I have a post at MF asking the Vortech guys what they are producing on the dyno. I have only 1 reply at last check and it was 455 whp, very close to mine (actually 467 whp, I called my wife and had her dig it out). The difference in 12 hp is minimal and can be explained by different a/f ratios, individual dyno's, timing, temperature etc. Another post here accounts for having 438 on a Mustang Dyno, which typically dyno less than the DJ. You sound like a fairly well informed person, so I'm sure you understand all those variables. Based on just those two accounts, my numbers appear to be in the vicinity.
Next time you "politely" call someone a liar and openly refuse to accept proving data as validation of their claim - don't be surprised when they take some offense.
No hard feelings on this end.
By all means - keep asking on the other boards. Ask them if they know ChevyKiller when you talk to them and tell them I said hi. And then ask them what the Vortech tune made and what their tuner was able to make with the 3.61 pulley at what psi?
No hard feelings on this end either.
05-12-2007, 10:23 PM
#25
5th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,881
RE: are 4:10's with a Vortech too much?
Yay, lets all hug![sm=smiley31.gif]
Lol... most people say 3.73s are best with FI, because anything more makes 1st gear useless... I guess it would really have to do with your application.
Lol... most people say 3.73s are best with FI, because anything more makes 1st gear useless... I guess it would really have to do with your application.
05-12-2007, 10:30 PM
#26
I ♥ Acer
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,527
RE: are 4:10's with a Vortech too much?
ORIGINAL: lieu910
Now I'm confused. You say 435 whp on a Mustang Dyno is good, but my 467 on a Dynojet is BS. I'll check the dyno sheet in the morning. If memeory serves me there was an entry for boost on the sheet. Maybe I have that wrong. It is the pulley used in the HO kit, that I am sure of.
I should have added, I also have CMCV delete plates, Mac Pro-Chamber and axle backs. I doubt those account for much though.
ORIGINAL: fordfanboy
That is a great and realistic number. The vortech canned tune is based on the 6200 factory rev limiter. These centrif's really wake up after 3800 rpm and on the factory limiter setting, it's almost impossibel to see over 9 psi. Have to bump upthe fatory limiter and pull the thing to at least 6500-6800 to see the kit pulley produce a solid 11 psi. It's possible to even hit 12 with some delicate tuning, good gas, and spinning the car up in the 7K range.
The average RWHP on the vortech tune is 390-410 rwhp. Tuners lean the tune out a little, bump up the limiter, make some changes to the a/f curves and injector slopes and can get up to 40 more rwhp depending on some some gas and timing issues.
The next step is to pulley down and then it's a simple matter of getting 470+ numbers.
ORIGINAL: Stkjock
I buy the numbers....
the skepttisim is that your number is on the high side and dnyos can be set up to read high to make the tuner look good. also the MD or DJ issue creeps in as well. DJ's typically read about 8-12% higher from what I've read then the MD. just my .02
my Vortech H.O. made 435 on a MD @ 6350 hitting 10.2 PSI... and the power was still climbing!!
I buy the numbers....
the skepttisim is that your number is on the high side and dnyos can be set up to read high to make the tuner look good. also the MD or DJ issue creeps in as well. DJ's typically read about 8-12% higher from what I've read then the MD. just my .02
my Vortech H.O. made 435 on a MD @ 6350 hitting 10.2 PSI... and the power was still climbing!!
The average RWHP on the vortech tune is 390-410 rwhp. Tuners lean the tune out a little, bump up the limiter, make some changes to the a/f curves and injector slopes and can get up to 40 more rwhp depending on some some gas and timing issues.
The next step is to pulley down and then it's a simple matter of getting 470+ numbers.
I should have added, I also have CMCV delete plates, Mac Pro-Chamber and axle backs. I doubt those account for much though.
Your scenario was making 450 rwhp on the vortech tune with the vortech kit at 5500-5600 rpm with 9 psi. (if you're wondering where I get those numbers - it's from the stock limiter settings and knowing what rpm you would see max psi with under those paramters.)
Your pull would have been shut down at 6K. I know this because the vortech tune does not bump the factory limiter settings.
05-12-2007, 10:36 PM
#27
Retired Mod
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,658
RE: are 4:10's with a Vortech too much?
fordfanboy,
you seem to know a lot and be from some type of racing family from what I've read....
my tuner stopped at 6350..... he did not want to have the motor let go on his dyno.... my numbers are based on my sheet.... see below....
considering that dynojets read higher... his 467 number is realisitc IMHO
[IMG]local://upfiles/59042/D47F3B5C481B430E93398E1B34874A5B.jpg[/IMG]
you seem to know a lot and be from some type of racing family from what I've read....
my tuner stopped at 6350..... he did not want to have the motor let go on his dyno.... my numbers are based on my sheet.... see below....
considering that dynojets read higher... his 467 number is realisitc IMHO
[IMG]local://upfiles/59042/D47F3B5C481B430E93398E1B34874A5B.jpg[/IMG]
05-12-2007, 10:37 PM
#28
3rd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 556
RE: are 4:10's with a Vortech too much?
ORIGINAL: fordfanboy
I said that is a realistic number because it is based on al the facts. he said he turned 10.2 psi @ 6350 which leads me to beleive the tuner made the pull to 6500 rpm and as I explained earlier with these centrifis, they keep making boost as you spinthem so you can always get some more if you can spin them higher. Hell, I spun mine to 7200 rpm at the track on occasion on the stock motor. I didn't even look that it was a Mustang Dyno. I was commenting on the number and the possibility. I didn't jump out and say I buy his numbers either... just that they are realistic and easier achievable IMO.
Your scenario was making 450 rwhp on the vortech tune with the vortech kit at 5500-5600 rpm with 9 psi. (if you're wondering where I get those numbers - it's from the stock limiter settings and knowing what rpm you would see max psi with under those paramters.)
Your pull would have been shut down at 6K. I know this because the vortech tune does not bump the factory limiter settings.
ORIGINAL: lieu910
Now I'm confused. You say 435 whp on a Mustang Dyno is good, but my 467 on a Dynojet is BS. I'll check the dyno sheet in the morning. If memeory serves me there was an entry for boost on the sheet. Maybe I have that wrong. It is the pulley used in the HO kit, that I am sure of.
I should have added, I also have CMCV delete plates, Mac Pro-Chamber and axle backs. I doubt those account for much though.
ORIGINAL: fordfanboy
That is a great and realistic number. The vortech canned tune is based on the 6200 factory rev limiter. These centrif's really wake up after 3800 rpm and on the factory limiter setting, it's almost impossibel to see over 9 psi. Have to bump upthe fatory limiter and pull the thing to at least 6500-6800 to see the kit pulley produce a solid 11 psi. It's possible to even hit 12 with some delicate tuning, good gas, and spinning the car up in the 7K range.
The average RWHP on the vortech tune is 390-410 rwhp. Tuners lean the tune out a little, bump up the limiter, make some changes to the a/f curves and injector slopes and can get up to 40 more rwhp depending on some some gas and timing issues.
The next step is to pulley down and then it's a simple matter of getting 470+ numbers.
ORIGINAL: Stkjock
I buy the numbers....
the skepttisim is that your number is on the high side and dnyos can be set up to read high to make the tuner look good. also the MD or DJ issue creeps in as well. DJ's typically read about 8-12% higher from what I've read then the MD. just my .02
my Vortech H.O. made 435 on a MD @ 6350 hitting 10.2 PSI... and the power was still climbing!!
I buy the numbers....
the skepttisim is that your number is on the high side and dnyos can be set up to read high to make the tuner look good. also the MD or DJ issue creeps in as well. DJ's typically read about 8-12% higher from what I've read then the MD. just my .02
my Vortech H.O. made 435 on a MD @ 6350 hitting 10.2 PSI... and the power was still climbing!!
The average RWHP on the vortech tune is 390-410 rwhp. Tuners lean the tune out a little, bump up the limiter, make some changes to the a/f curves and injector slopes and can get up to 40 more rwhp depending on some some gas and timing issues.
The next step is to pulley down and then it's a simple matter of getting 470+ numbers.
I should have added, I also have CMCV delete plates, Mac Pro-Chamber and axle backs. I doubt those account for much though.
Your scenario was making 450 rwhp on the vortech tune with the vortech kit at 5500-5600 rpm with 9 psi. (if you're wondering where I get those numbers - it's from the stock limiter settings and knowing what rpm you would see max psi with under those paramters.)
Your pull would have been shut down at 6K. I know this because the vortech tune does not bump the factory limiter settings.
I gotchya. I'm probably not giving you all the information either since I don't have the sheet in front of me. You obviously know your stuff, it would be interesting to get your thoughts onmy dyno pull if I could get the data to you.
05-12-2007, 11:01 PM
#29
I ♥ Acer
Join Date: Aug 2006
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RE: are 4:10's with a Vortech too much?
That woud be fine and I really hope you understand my MAIN DISBELIEF is that the Vortech canned tune put out 450 rwhp. Your numbers are not shocking to me - it's how you think you got to them I am questioning, is all.
I will be the first to apologize and say I was wrong but I will be utterly shocked if the vortech tune put down 450 rwhp @ 9 psi.
Oh - this IS a S-trim blower we're talking about, correct? lol
I will be the first to apologize and say I was wrong but I will be utterly shocked if the vortech tune put down 450 rwhp @ 9 psi.
Oh - this IS a S-trim blower we're talking about, correct? lol
05-12-2007, 11:09 PM
#30
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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RE: are 4:10's with a Vortech too much?
ORIGINAL: Stkjock
fordfanboy,
you seem to know a lot and be from some type of racing family from what I've read....
my tuner stopped at 6350..... he did not want to have the motor let go on his dyno.... my numbers are based on my sheet.... see below....
considering that dynojets read higher... his 467 number is realisitc IMHO
[IMG]local://upfiles/59042/D47F3B5C481B430E93398E1B34874A5B.jpg[/IMG]
fordfanboy,
you seem to know a lot and be from some type of racing family from what I've read....
my tuner stopped at 6350..... he did not want to have the motor let go on his dyno.... my numbers are based on my sheet.... see below....
considering that dynojets read higher... his 467 number is realisitc IMHO
[IMG]local://upfiles/59042/D47F3B5C481B430E93398E1B34874A5B.jpg[/IMG]
One of the main reasons I am on forums is to learn stuff. Most of my knoweldge about these cars comes after I break shXt...[:@]