Nitrogen in wheels
06-26-2007, 12:19 PM
#21
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Redding, CA
Posts: 4,552
RE: Nitrogen in wheels
Ignorance is bliss for some folks I guess. The nitrogen molecule is bigger than most other gases which helps prevent it from leaking out of your tire. It does maintain less moisture which is good too. However, I don't have a pure nitrogen machine in my garage so I won't be adding it.
I guess the reported improved handling and wear characteristics come into play when there is less variance in pressure when going from a cold PSI to a warm PSI. Don't think there's hardly anyone here who would benifit.
I guess the reported improved handling and wear characteristics come into play when there is less variance in pressure when going from a cold PSI to a warm PSI. Don't think there's hardly anyone here who would benifit.
06-26-2007, 12:21 PM
#22
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The High Country
Posts: 3,547
RE: Nitrogen in wheels
ORIGINAL: bascho
We ALL have Nitrogen in our tires. Here is what makes up AIR:
Nitrogen 78.084%
Oxygen 20.946%
Argon 0.934%
Carbon dioxide 0.038%
Water vapor 1%
Other 0.002%
We ALL have Nitrogen in our tires. Here is what makes up AIR:
Nitrogen 78.084%
Oxygen 20.946%
Argon 0.934%
Carbon dioxide 0.038%
Water vapor 1%
Other 0.002%
Yea, that's priceless. Unless you are airing up the space shuttles tires, stay with the free stuff!
06-26-2007, 12:26 PM
#23
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 361
RE: Nitrogen in wheels
Cross posted from another forum:
[/align]
The question about nitrogen in tires has come up in other lists on the web as well.Let me clarrify a few points.
1.Air is 78% nitrogen, N2, and 21% oxygen, O2.So even if you put air in the tire, it's already 78% nitrogen.Many of the so called nitrogen generators don't produce much more than 90% nitrogen.
2.At relatively low pressures (ie tire pressures) N2, O2 and water vapor will all behave as ideal gases, and follow PV=nRT.Pressure will increase or decrease to the same extent as the temperature increases or decreases regardless of which gas is in the tire. (Even at 300 psi, which is about 20 atm, there is little deviation from ideality.)Therefore the comments about N2 not changing in pressure as the temperature changes are without merit.
3.The rate of effusion (or diffusion) of a gas through a porous membrane depends on the molar mass and to some degree on the molecular diameter.N2 and O2 are almost the same size and N2 is lighter than O2 (28 g/mol vs 32 g/mol) so if either gas were to effuse out of the tire, nitrogen would do it more quickly.Luckily, tires are designed not to be porous membranes.
4.N2 and O2 both have essentially the same specific heat capacity, about 1.0 J/gK, and thermal conductivity, about 0.00026 W/cmK.Water vapor has a specific heat capacity of about 2 J/gK.But remember, water vapor will constitute less than 1% of the air in the tire.So the idea that N2 has different heat handling properties is also without merit.
5.The ozone, O3, in the atmosphere, which is a ground level pollutant, will do a great deal more damage to your tires than the O2 inside the tire.For instance, don't leave a condom out in the air in Los Angeles for a few days.It will develop lots of tiny holes and weaken.
spdracer22 says that dry air is preferably to air with a lot of water vapor.As a tire heats up, the very small amount of H2O present will be in the vapor state which may contribute to the overall pressure very slightly.
Several have suggested that N2 in a high pressure tank is more portable and requires no electricity.That would make sense, particularly for aircraft tires.
I find no reason to believe that N2 is going to produce a "better ride" or "better handling".
The bottom line is that for general passenger car tires or truck tires there is nothing to be gained (other than portability) by using nitrogen rather than air.The biggest gain will be $$$ by the companies that sell nitrogen handling equipment and the tire merchants that appeal to ignorant customers.And who is the biggest loser? Yep, the consumer.
1.Air is 78% nitrogen, N2, and 21% oxygen, O2.So even if you put air in the tire, it's already 78% nitrogen.Many of the so called nitrogen generators don't produce much more than 90% nitrogen.
2.At relatively low pressures (ie tire pressures) N2, O2 and water vapor will all behave as ideal gases, and follow PV=nRT.Pressure will increase or decrease to the same extent as the temperature increases or decreases regardless of which gas is in the tire. (Even at 300 psi, which is about 20 atm, there is little deviation from ideality.)Therefore the comments about N2 not changing in pressure as the temperature changes are without merit.
3.The rate of effusion (or diffusion) of a gas through a porous membrane depends on the molar mass and to some degree on the molecular diameter.N2 and O2 are almost the same size and N2 is lighter than O2 (28 g/mol vs 32 g/mol) so if either gas were to effuse out of the tire, nitrogen would do it more quickly.Luckily, tires are designed not to be porous membranes.
4.N2 and O2 both have essentially the same specific heat capacity, about 1.0 J/gK, and thermal conductivity, about 0.00026 W/cmK.Water vapor has a specific heat capacity of about 2 J/gK.But remember, water vapor will constitute less than 1% of the air in the tire.So the idea that N2 has different heat handling properties is also without merit.
5.The ozone, O3, in the atmosphere, which is a ground level pollutant, will do a great deal more damage to your tires than the O2 inside the tire.For instance, don't leave a condom out in the air in Los Angeles for a few days.It will develop lots of tiny holes and weaken.
spdracer22 says that dry air is preferably to air with a lot of water vapor.As a tire heats up, the very small amount of H2O present will be in the vapor state which may contribute to the overall pressure very slightly.
Several have suggested that N2 in a high pressure tank is more portable and requires no electricity.That would make sense, particularly for aircraft tires.
I find no reason to believe that N2 is going to produce a "better ride" or "better handling".
The bottom line is that for general passenger car tires or truck tires there is nothing to be gained (other than portability) by using nitrogen rather than air.The biggest gain will be $$$ by the companies that sell nitrogen handling equipment and the tire merchants that appeal to ignorant customers.And who is the biggest loser? Yep, the consumer.
06-26-2007, 12:42 PM
#24
I ♥ Acer
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,786
RE: Nitrogen in wheels
ORIGINAL: goodwrench78
i am a GM service manager we are a full line gm dealer!
nitrogen is a great idea! i put ntrogenin all my high end cars, like caddys, buicks, etc
nitrogen doesnt expand at all unlike reg air does! you ckeck you air in the morning and its reads 32psi then you drive 30mins and now it reads 35psi or higher! and for all you 07 stangs and up the silly tire light comes on and off all the time but if you switch to nitrogen you will have alot less problems! because if you sit your car in the garage then go to drive it the tire heats up which expands the air causing the tire light to come on! big time problem in winter! btw if you can controlyour air pressure ofthe tire itwill perform much better which will make your car handing dead on!
i am a GM service manager we are a full line gm dealer!
nitrogen is a great idea! i put ntrogenin all my high end cars, like caddys, buicks, etc
nitrogen doesnt expand at all unlike reg air does! you ckeck you air in the morning and its reads 32psi then you drive 30mins and now it reads 35psi or higher! and for all you 07 stangs and up the silly tire light comes on and off all the time but if you switch to nitrogen you will have alot less problems! because if you sit your car in the garage then go to drive it the tire heats up which expands the air causing the tire light to come on! big time problem in winter! btw if you can controlyour air pressure ofthe tire itwill perform much better which will make your car handing dead on!
dude do they let you park your mustang in your parking spot at the GM dealer?
ALERT OVER - RESUME PI$$ING CONTEST
06-26-2007, 12:46 PM
#25
Gentleman's Relish
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 13,090
RE: Nitrogen in wheels
ORIGINAL: Vulcan
Anybody run nitrogrn in their tires? Myfriends son ownes a Bmw, Porsche garage and I was just talking to him about getting new wheels and tires. He told me he would balance and mount them for me and fill the tires with nitrogen. He runs nitrogen in his race car and personal car, both are BMW. He says nitrogen improves steering and handling and also reduces tread life and tire failure. He also said that it slows the pressure loss and I can stop by whenever I want to check pressure/add nitrogen. His shop is only 4 miles from my house. ?
Anybody run nitrogrn in their tires? Myfriends son ownes a Bmw, Porsche garage and I was just talking to him about getting new wheels and tires. He told me he would balance and mount them for me and fill the tires with nitrogen. He runs nitrogen in his race car and personal car, both are BMW. He says nitrogen improves steering and handling and also reduces tread life and tire failure. He also said that it slows the pressure loss and I can stop by whenever I want to check pressure/add nitrogen. His shop is only 4 miles from my house. ?
The primary benefit of nitrogen in tires is that nitrogen and oxygen do not mix, therefore there is less of a likelyhood for there to be water introduced into the tire. Water over several years will cause degradation (rotting) of the tire from the inside out. Here's the killer though as to why nitrogens benefit is limited. In order for a tire to rot out, you would have to have a cup of water in there for over 10 years.[&:]When was the last time you kept a tire on a car for 10 years unless it was a classic?
06-26-2007, 12:57 PM
#26
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 361
RE: Nitrogen in wheels
The tire is going to rot from the outside much faster then the inside...
Oxygen and Nitrogen DO mix. nitrous Oxide(N2O), otherwise known as Giggle gas, NOS, whatever. Some of us might be familiar with it here...
If you put nitrogen in your tires your car is lighter but only because you aren't carrying as much money.
Oxygen and Nitrogen DO mix. nitrous Oxide(N2O), otherwise known as Giggle gas, NOS, whatever. Some of us might be familiar with it here...
If you put nitrogen in your tires your car is lighter but only because you aren't carrying as much money.
06-26-2007, 01:31 PM
#28
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 960
RE: Nitrogen in wheels
I gotta add my .02 here. Claims being made about this crap are getting blown out of proportion. Just like every other "fade" item to come along I own a repair shop, and sell tires as well. I am straight forward about fixing peoples cars and will NEVER lie to a customer, even if we did something to mess up. Nitrogen "fill-ups" are a crock of poo. As said earlier, the atmosphere is already approx 75% nitrogen. The best nitrogen machine available will fill the tire to 95% pure, as the company claims. The nitrogen molecules ARE bigger, thus, they are less likely to seep out. Being bigger, there are less molecules to expand. That gets you less variance in tire pressure. Great for race cars being pushed to the edge, but ayawner for everyday street cars. The machine will also remove moisture in the air to HELP prevent corrsion of the rim. BUT, since 95% of the public rarely keeps their cars past 8 years, and still goes through two sets of tires, its not long enough for this to be a factor. Quick lube places charge up to $20 for this dis-"service". I feel its a rip-off item. Every car that comes through my shop gets a quick check over and the tires are filled up with the air that happens to be in season. (If we could always keep a yearlong supply of Spring air...
.) If people would, at the very least, just glance at their tires when they fill-up with gas, and check out a tire thats suspiciously low, they can get all those wonderful nitrogen benefits oflonger tire life, better mileage, etc, etc, without having to BUY that extra 20% of nitrogen. Nitrogen, by itself, does nothing to help handling, tire life or prevents tire failures. A nail doesnt care whats inside the tire. Its still gonna poke a hole in it and let out everything in it. No pressure means side wall flex, which increases heat and leads to tire failure. A slipped belt also doesnt care whats inside, tire failure will still happen.
It all comes down to how much people pay attention to their car. Fellow mustang enthusiats, you would be extremely shocked about what I see here on a daily basis. Honestly,it sometimes makes mescared to think about driving my cars around some of the people I see. "I was just driving along and heard this noise. I was getting close to home, so I was trying to make it there. It started smoking out the back after a few miles, then just stopped. Can you fix it real quick?" Sure, let me get out my magic wand, and patch the hole in the side of the block. Those are the type of people that would spend $20 on AIR!!!
Slick 50, fuel line magnets, Tornadoes, laundry *****, damn, the list goes on and on with things that really offer no benefit. Especially when you have to pay for it.
I'm done ranting.
This subject just gets my panties all wadded up.[:@]
.) If people would, at the very least, just glance at their tires when they fill-up with gas, and check out a tire thats suspiciously low, they can get all those wonderful nitrogen benefits oflonger tire life, better mileage, etc, etc, without having to BUY that extra 20% of nitrogen. Nitrogen, by itself, does nothing to help handling, tire life or prevents tire failures. A nail doesnt care whats inside the tire. Its still gonna poke a hole in it and let out everything in it. No pressure means side wall flex, which increases heat and leads to tire failure. A slipped belt also doesnt care whats inside, tire failure will still happen.It all comes down to how much people pay attention to their car. Fellow mustang enthusiats, you would be extremely shocked about what I see here on a daily basis. Honestly,it sometimes makes mescared to think about driving my cars around some of the people I see. "I was just driving along and heard this noise. I was getting close to home, so I was trying to make it there. It started smoking out the back after a few miles, then just stopped. Can you fix it real quick?" Sure, let me get out my magic wand, and patch the hole in the side of the block. Those are the type of people that would spend $20 on AIR!!!
Slick 50, fuel line magnets, Tornadoes, laundry *****, damn, the list goes on and on with things that really offer no benefit. Especially when you have to pay for it.
I'm done ranting.
This subject just gets my panties all wadded up.[:@]
06-26-2007, 02:31 PM
#29
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Posts: 42
RE: Nitrogen in wheels
This might be the easiest way to think about it...
Can you get your tires filled with nitrogen for free? Go for it...
Do you have to pay for it? Don't waste your money.
I've got nitrogen in the wheels of the planes I fly...because of it's stability across a range of altitudes and temperatures. It's also a dry gas, so it cuts down on the corrosion inside the rims. However, I don't think you'll be taking your car to 30,000 feet anytime soon, nor will you see a temperature fluctuation of 100+ degress while you're driving...
Can you get your tires filled with nitrogen for free? Go for it...
Do you have to pay for it? Don't waste your money.
I've got nitrogen in the wheels of the planes I fly...because of it's stability across a range of altitudes and temperatures. It's also a dry gas, so it cuts down on the corrosion inside the rims. However, I don't think you'll be taking your car to 30,000 feet anytime soon, nor will you see a temperature fluctuation of 100+ degress while you're driving...
