Help me decide, Turbo or S/C
07-12-2007, 08:01 PM
#22
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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RE: Help me decide, Turbo or S/C
Its fine with an auto as long as you dont really plan on turning up alot of boost (above 12-14 psi) then it will be an issue. Tuning a turbo auto will be harder but you should be fine. I think the STS is the only one because its rear mount. I won't bad mouth the setup its just not for me, but no disrespect to DEX who has a great set up
07-12-2007, 09:44 PM
#24
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Babylon, NY
Posts: 3,031
RE: Help me decide, Turbo or S/C
Listen, if your not building up your bottom end, and this is your DD, you'll want to stay at or below 450rwhp anyway. So really, wtf is the difference? IMO the cheapest, simplest, least complicated route you can take to get to that power level is your answer, no?
There are far fewer reliable and successful turbo installs on these cars than S/C installs hands down. Just look at this forum and its members. Turbos are more time consuming and somewhat more complicated to install in general. With the exception of the STS, they also generate alot more undehood heat. They are also more difficult to tune and have far less shops that are knowledgable with them on these S197s than with S/Cs. Therefore, you will likely have far less product and customer service available to you locally if your tune is not cooperating.
Again, not looking to make real big power and it's a DD? Then S/C makes sense.
There are far fewer reliable and successful turbo installs on these cars than S/C installs hands down. Just look at this forum and its members. Turbos are more time consuming and somewhat more complicated to install in general. With the exception of the STS, they also generate alot more undehood heat. They are also more difficult to tune and have far less shops that are knowledgable with them on these S197s than with S/Cs. Therefore, you will likely have far less product and customer service available to you locally if your tune is not cooperating.
Again, not looking to make real big power and it's a DD? Then S/C makes sense.
then go ricer style two step WAWAWAAWAAWAWAWAWAWAW ::flames::[8D]
07-12-2007, 10:10 PM
#27
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Posts: 114
RE: Help me decide, Turbo or S/C
My goal is to get into the 11's. Whether it be 11.99 or 11.01, I just want to be there. I have no problem building up my bottom end if that's what it takes. You gotta pay to play right?
07-13-2007, 12:31 AM
#28
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,209
RE: Help me decide, Turbo or S/C
Well, I've driven a turbo car, and I've driven a S/C car. And I can say that I would rather have a S/C for a variety of reasons...
1) Turbos have lag. They come in late, and when you feel it, it's almost like someone gave your car a hard push or something if they're not tuned properly. There are ways to get around the turbo lag, but they usually involve either going to a smaller turbo (and therefore less power) or finding some way to make the motor spin up faster to generate more exhaust gases to help spin the turbo faster and therefore force more air into the motor.
2) Superchargers give more even pull. They start putting forced induction in as soon as you start accelerating, because they're belt driven and go with the RPMs of the engine. This does have its own problems, such as the fact that you have to keep the engine RPMs higher in order to get more air in, but it's more of a linear pull than turbo power.
3) Turbo power kicking in around a corner can be SCARY, especially in a RWD vehicle. I watched a twin turbo RX-7 spin out and hit a low wall, fold the passenger front tire in under the car, and trash pretty much everything with the motor. How did this happen? The first turbo spooled up, gave power, and then the second turbo kicked in late. The guy who was autocrossing the car at Qualcomm was inexperienced with a twin turbo setup, and wasn't prepared for that power to kick in late. He walked away with a badly bruised body and a totaled car. Now, I'm not saying that all turbos are bad because of this, but if you're not aware of the turbo lag kicking in, you might end up quickly out of control.
4) As was mentioned before, heat is your enemy. Turbos generate tons of heat in the engine because you're causing those hot exhaust gases to build up inside the headers to spin the turbines and force cold air into your engine. You're basically storing that heat in the car's engine longer than it may be designed for. The 4.6L motor generates a fair amount of heat as it is, without the turbo adding to it...
5) CARB legality. I have YET to find a turbo kit that had a CARB E.O. That doesn't mean that there's not one out there, but turbocharger kits aren't exactly CARB friendly. Why they allow them to be factory installed for various cars and pass CARB but not as a kit and be legal is beyond me; I personally think it has to do with where the money lies...But that's politics better reserved for the likes of SEMA to fight.
I love the S/C on my dad's truck...With it, he gets a TON of torque. His best memory with his S/C F150 was when he was pulling our 21' fish n' ski boat up a hill, and this guy in a Chevy Suburban tried to pass us. He rolled onto the throttle at 70 mph and pulled away from the Suburban like he was standing still...WHILE TOWING THE BOAT. That right there sold me on the virtue of superchargers.
1) Turbos have lag. They come in late, and when you feel it, it's almost like someone gave your car a hard push or something if they're not tuned properly. There are ways to get around the turbo lag, but they usually involve either going to a smaller turbo (and therefore less power) or finding some way to make the motor spin up faster to generate more exhaust gases to help spin the turbo faster and therefore force more air into the motor.
2) Superchargers give more even pull. They start putting forced induction in as soon as you start accelerating, because they're belt driven and go with the RPMs of the engine. This does have its own problems, such as the fact that you have to keep the engine RPMs higher in order to get more air in, but it's more of a linear pull than turbo power.
3) Turbo power kicking in around a corner can be SCARY, especially in a RWD vehicle. I watched a twin turbo RX-7 spin out and hit a low wall, fold the passenger front tire in under the car, and trash pretty much everything with the motor. How did this happen? The first turbo spooled up, gave power, and then the second turbo kicked in late. The guy who was autocrossing the car at Qualcomm was inexperienced with a twin turbo setup, and wasn't prepared for that power to kick in late. He walked away with a badly bruised body and a totaled car. Now, I'm not saying that all turbos are bad because of this, but if you're not aware of the turbo lag kicking in, you might end up quickly out of control.
4) As was mentioned before, heat is your enemy. Turbos generate tons of heat in the engine because you're causing those hot exhaust gases to build up inside the headers to spin the turbines and force cold air into your engine. You're basically storing that heat in the car's engine longer than it may be designed for. The 4.6L motor generates a fair amount of heat as it is, without the turbo adding to it...
5) CARB legality. I have YET to find a turbo kit that had a CARB E.O. That doesn't mean that there's not one out there, but turbocharger kits aren't exactly CARB friendly. Why they allow them to be factory installed for various cars and pass CARB but not as a kit and be legal is beyond me; I personally think it has to do with where the money lies...But that's politics better reserved for the likes of SEMA to fight.
I love the S/C on my dad's truck...With it, he gets a TON of torque. His best memory with his S/C F150 was when he was pulling our 21' fish n' ski boat up a hill, and this guy in a Chevy Suburban tried to pass us. He rolled onto the throttle at 70 mph and pulled away from the Suburban like he was standing still...WHILE TOWING THE BOAT. That right there sold me on the virtue of superchargers.
07-13-2007, 12:43 AM
#29
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CO
Posts: 3,095
RE: Help me decide, Turbo or S/C
ORIGINAL: drbobvs
Listen, if your not building up your bottom end, and this is your DD, you'll want to stay at or below 450rwhp anyway. So really, wtf is the difference? IMO the cheapest, simplest, least complicated route you can take to get to that power level is your answer, no?
There are far fewer reliable and successful turbo installs on these cars than S/C installs hands down. Just look at this forum and its members. Turbos are more time consuming and somewhat more complicated to install in general. With the exception of the STS, they also generate alot more undehood heat. They are also more difficult to tune and have far less shops that are knowledgable with them on these S197s than with S/Cs. Therefore, you will likely have far less product and customer service available to you locally if your tune is not cooperating.
Again, not looking to make real big power and it's a DD? Then S/C makes sense.
Listen, if your not building up your bottom end, and this is your DD, you'll want to stay at or below 450rwhp anyway. So really, wtf is the difference? IMO the cheapest, simplest, least complicated route you can take to get to that power level is your answer, no?
There are far fewer reliable and successful turbo installs on these cars than S/C installs hands down. Just look at this forum and its members. Turbos are more time consuming and somewhat more complicated to install in general. With the exception of the STS, they also generate alot more undehood heat. They are also more difficult to tune and have far less shops that are knowledgable with them on these S197s than with S/Cs. Therefore, you will likely have far less product and customer service available to you locally if your tune is not cooperating.
Again, not looking to make real big power and it's a DD? Then S/C makes sense.
the difference is, a turbo at 450rwhp is putting relatively the same stress on your internals as a blown car making around 500rwhp. If it were me, i'd go twin screw. Very linear power delivery, but it is there instantly. One of the easier installs. Very reliable. Seeeexxxxxyyy. great sound. lots of potential. Really you will be happy with any of them. I'd suggest, since it doesn't seem you are very knowledgable on the subject (please don't take that offensively) find out what your local shop supports. Most shops have a favorite that they like to work with and are familiar with...go with that company. Let's say they like vortech most and deal with mainly them- You will have experts on your EXACT form of forced induction within as short a distance as possible. You know they have extensive experience installing and TUNING the vortech (or whatever) etc. You will likely be happy with any of the setups, and you will be alot happier if they run well and are fixed quickly if something breaks. good luck.
07-13-2007, 06:42 AM
#30
I ♥ Acer
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 1,136
RE: Help me decide, Turbo or S/C
ORIGINAL: Sprzout
Well, I've driven a turbo car, and I've driven a S/C car. And I can say that I would rather have a S/C for a variety of reasons...
1) Turbos have lag. They come in late, and when you feel it, it's almost like someone gave your car a hard push or something if they're not tuned properly. There are ways to get around the turbo lag, but they usually involve either going to a smaller turbo (and therefore less power) or finding some way to make the motor spin up faster to generate more exhaust gases to help spin the turbo faster and therefore force more air into the motor.
Turbo used to have lag, mine has no noticeable lag what so ever. I have a 62mm turbo that yes will do less hp but rated at 600-650, so I think thats enough for most. Now they are harder to tune, but can be done with little or no issues like mine
2) Superchargers give more even pull. They start putting forced induction in as soon as you start accelerating, because they're belt driven and go with the RPMs of the engine. This does have its own problems, such as the fact that you have to keep the engine RPMs higher in order to get more air in, but it's more of a linear pull than turbo power. I'm at full boost at 3k rpm. Now S/C are great and I dont think anyone is better than the other but my car stays in top boost longer than most S/C
3) Turbo power kicking in around a corner can be SCARY, especially in a RWD vehicle. I watched a twin turbo RX-7 spin out and hit a low wall, fold the passenger front tire in under the car, and trash pretty much everything with the motor. How did this happen? The first turbo spooled up, gave power, and then the second turbo kicked in late. The guy who was autocrossing the car at Qualcomm was inexperienced with a twin turbo setup, and wasn't prepared for that power to kick in late. He walked away with a badly bruised body and a totaled car. Now, I'm not saying that all turbos are bad because of this, but if you're not aware of the turbo lag kicking in, you might end up quickly out of control. Any amount of power in excess of 450rwhp can be scary if you don't know how to drive. I can say not one time have I lost the back end
4) As was mentioned before, heat is your enemy. Turbos generate tons of heat in the engine because you're causing those hot exhaust gases to build up inside the headers to spin the turbines and force cold air into your engine. You're basically storing that heat in the car's engine longer than it may be designed for. The 4.6L motor generates a fair amount of heat as it is, without the turbo adding to it...
Your right here, there is alot of heat involved with a turbo. But I live in SW FL and have had Zero issue. Intercooler helps alot.
5) CARB legality. I have YET to find a turbo kit that had a CARB E.O. That doesn't mean that there's not one out there, but turbocharger kits aren't exactly CARB friendly. Why they allow them to be factory installed for various cars and pass CARB but not as a kit and be legal is beyond me; I personally think it has to do with where the money lies...But that's politics better reserved for the likes of SEMA to fight. F it. But your right again
I love the S/C on my dad's truck...With it, he gets a TON of torque. His best memory with his S/C F150 was when he was pulling our 21' fish n' ski boat up a hill, and this guy in a Chevy Suburban tried to pass us. He rolled onto the throttle at 70 mph and pulled away from the Suburban like he was standing still...WHILE TOWING THE BOAT. That right there sold me on the virtue of superchargers.
Well, I've driven a turbo car, and I've driven a S/C car. And I can say that I would rather have a S/C for a variety of reasons...
1) Turbos have lag. They come in late, and when you feel it, it's almost like someone gave your car a hard push or something if they're not tuned properly. There are ways to get around the turbo lag, but they usually involve either going to a smaller turbo (and therefore less power) or finding some way to make the motor spin up faster to generate more exhaust gases to help spin the turbo faster and therefore force more air into the motor.
Turbo used to have lag, mine has no noticeable lag what so ever. I have a 62mm turbo that yes will do less hp but rated at 600-650, so I think thats enough for most. Now they are harder to tune, but can be done with little or no issues like mine
2) Superchargers give more even pull. They start putting forced induction in as soon as you start accelerating, because they're belt driven and go with the RPMs of the engine. This does have its own problems, such as the fact that you have to keep the engine RPMs higher in order to get more air in, but it's more of a linear pull than turbo power. I'm at full boost at 3k rpm. Now S/C are great and I dont think anyone is better than the other but my car stays in top boost longer than most S/C
3) Turbo power kicking in around a corner can be SCARY, especially in a RWD vehicle. I watched a twin turbo RX-7 spin out and hit a low wall, fold the passenger front tire in under the car, and trash pretty much everything with the motor. How did this happen? The first turbo spooled up, gave power, and then the second turbo kicked in late. The guy who was autocrossing the car at Qualcomm was inexperienced with a twin turbo setup, and wasn't prepared for that power to kick in late. He walked away with a badly bruised body and a totaled car. Now, I'm not saying that all turbos are bad because of this, but if you're not aware of the turbo lag kicking in, you might end up quickly out of control. Any amount of power in excess of 450rwhp can be scary if you don't know how to drive. I can say not one time have I lost the back end
4) As was mentioned before, heat is your enemy. Turbos generate tons of heat in the engine because you're causing those hot exhaust gases to build up inside the headers to spin the turbines and force cold air into your engine. You're basically storing that heat in the car's engine longer than it may be designed for. The 4.6L motor generates a fair amount of heat as it is, without the turbo adding to it...
Your right here, there is alot of heat involved with a turbo. But I live in SW FL and have had Zero issue. Intercooler helps alot.
5) CARB legality. I have YET to find a turbo kit that had a CARB E.O. That doesn't mean that there's not one out there, but turbocharger kits aren't exactly CARB friendly. Why they allow them to be factory installed for various cars and pass CARB but not as a kit and be legal is beyond me; I personally think it has to do with where the money lies...But that's politics better reserved for the likes of SEMA to fight. F it. But your right again
I love the S/C on my dad's truck...With it, he gets a TON of torque. His best memory with his S/C F150 was when he was pulling our 21' fish n' ski boat up a hill, and this guy in a Chevy Suburban tried to pass us. He rolled onto the throttle at 70 mph and pulled away from the Suburban like he was standing still...WHILE TOWING THE BOAT. That right there sold me on the virtue of superchargers.
Hey I am not knocking S/C and love them, but when done right Turbo have sick T/Q and long power curve. Top also is great as mine still holds and pulls above 6k rpm. Are there alot of turbos blowing up 4.6 3V yes. THats why its key to have a Great shop do the install and tune. With that said if you can, turbo would be great and so would a Kenne Bell or Whipple. Good luck!