ThisBlood147

I think its important to mention in this thread also that driver treatment of the car can have alot to do with how much your engine will withstand. That said, one doesn't need to dump 100 extra hp into the stock 4.6 to break something. Take my friend for example. He has a 97 Sunfire that he just bought used after he rolled his Firebird. Well, needless to say, he was not ready to be demoted back to a 4 cyclinder engine. He bent two rods in a completely stock, unmodded 4 banger. I don't pretend that the GT's engine is designed so poorly that one could blow it up running it stock (but with enough abuse I'm sure its possible). But my point is that someone could supercharge their GT to 400HP and drive it around for years and years problem free......and the next guy could put 400 hp under his GT's hood and bend a few rods and thrash a piston or two in under two weeks. The way a car will be driven with the added mods plays a big part. Someone who does mods just to have a kickass daily driver is far less likely to experience major engine problems as opposed to someone who regularly races their car or pushes it to its limits and beyond.

Rezalien

gotta throw this in...

keep this thread going! THIS type of info is why I joined the forum....lot's to learn here

peace

chevykiller

I started to thread to help some other guys out who have been having problems. (you know who you are). We have been getting some responses from different people but you have to bear in mind that every case is individual and you should not assume what happens to one guy is a definitive of how all GT's will react. The reason is because you are only getting one guys version of the story. Not saying anyone is lying, but unless the guy worked on his engine himself, he is only going off of what his tuner/builder is telling him and a lot of times, the tuner/builder would rather tell you what sounds reasonable instead of saying , "I don't know" or worse, admitting he may have done something wrong. The point is no matter what I or anyone else tell you, the facts are the stock bottom end should handle 400-450 rwhp with a custom tune with no problems and many people have done this. The fact is also that it only takes a tuning and/or instal error to ruin an engine even at 300 rwhp. I have had 521 rwhp on the stock bottom end for about 1000 miles now and over 50 WOT passes at the track. I could also blow something at any time. I haven't yet, but you shouldn't take that as it is safe to do so. I try to 'pad the cushion' so to speak as much as possible by having regular checkups, running high octane ALL THE TIME and keeping my car as cool as possible. For example, After every pass at the track, I put 2 bags of ice on the engine to cool things down. I never run my engine hot and try to keep things as cool as possible. But keeping the car cool will also NOT garuntee me anything, it's just helping and all you can do to safeguard when pushing the envelope.

What I'm trying to get accross is TALK to your tuner/builder and speak frankly and expect the same. Ask important questions like, what other new mustangs have you worked on and ask to see dyno's and even the actual cars if possible. If this upsets your tuner, then he is the wrong guy. All of the top shops I know actually appreciate you asking and are more than willing to show you what they have done. Ask how much experience he has with a particualr mod that you want to put in. Most importantly, NEVER tell him how much power you want!!! Tell him to get you as much power as you can safely go with your mods. If your tuner/builder is worth a damn, he will be able to tell you exactly how far you can safely go after getting it on the dyno and playing with it a few times. If you get a response telling you, "we'll put it on and then we'll see" then he is not worth your time. Also, don't assume your tuner/builder is a specialist at everything. He may be very good at s/c's and have little or no experience with NOS, etc. It is not uncommon to take your car to different specialists to perform different functions to get your car right. Whatever mod your putting on your car and especially combination of mods, make sure the guy doing it has a lot of experience with your particular model of car and is confident. Someone with experience will probably have aready learned through trial and error what is safe and what is not.

Lastly, don't make the mistake of thinking these new machines are production copies of their earlier family members. Just about everything has changed on these new mustangs and just because a shop has built lot's of cobras and older GT's, doesn't mean that they can work on these new stangs. Make sure your tuner/shop has experience working on this new mustang. You certaily don't want to be anyone's ginny pig.

M

I'm just add a +1 to what killer said at the beginning of this thread.

I know youve had a few problems airfoil but i have to think back to another thread where you posted saying that the shop you work with had a lot of funds to play around with so if they broke it they fixed it, i cant help but think that played a role in your engine troubles. perhaps they pushed things when they shouldnt have, or didnt get their tunes quite right, etc... not flaming here but maybe that had something to do with it.

i cant imagine all these companies (vortech, procharger, KB, whipple) are going to sell these products knowing that they are gonna blow your engines ATLEAST at the advertised boost they are talking about. i'm saying maximum of 10#'s. they all do say especially Kb that if you are going to push beyond that then you need to upgrade your engine. and especially whipple, i've had several conversations with them and they encourage the 8# cooled kit over the non-cooled 5# kit because of temp control and say outright that the 8# kit is their dailydriver kit. whipple works hand in hand with ford and they have 1000's of hours on test vehicles and no blown engines...so does KB and procharger. im not as familiar with vortech so i dont know.

maybe im being a bit naive here, but i am talking about the general public using these kits as bolt-on power and not guys like killer, and airfoil wanting to push the limits. i do want to know whats necessary to upgrade our engines so that one day if i decide to pump up the boost i can do it and keep everything intact, but again for the most part i have to think that our engines will be fine if you work with a shop that is confident in what they are doing. and thanks to guys like airfoil, and killer, adam at S.T. , if we want to push it one day we can thank these guys for being the leaders and finding out what works and what doesnt.

ThisBlood147

I'm gonna post this site up for anyone reading this thread that may be considering upgrading your stock engine internals. TONS of bottom end options and alternative engine possibilities.

http://www.seanhylandmotorsport.com/

airfoil

That's where the bottom end on my car came from. The lead time on stock was 6 months but .020 over was 4 weeks. We're .020 over. Good equipment and great to deal with.

gregsdart

Haven't had a chance to install my saleen blower yet, but a pattern seems to be emerging hear, concerning possible safe Hp numbers, blowers and boost.
My goal is to get what i can out of the saleen blower at about 8 psi, and to maximize that i plan on using the allready purchased 90 mm MAF, 39 lb injecters, and stock everything else for the moment plus JDM tune to go with it. To maximize this combo safely, i am considering a spring change to safeguard the valvetrain for the higher than stock rpm (max 6800?) and a better fuel system to gaurantee enough fuel at all times, up to any level i intend to run in the future. I don't want to get into high octane fuels, simply because i want this as a daily driver.
A good local tuner in the minneapolis area is on my list of people to find, to finalize this deal when done.
Sounds like the places to work on to make the most out of a stock bottom end deal are in reducing exhuast back pressure, which is major in the effort to get the most out of the package. It is esentially free Hp in the sense of no extra strain on the motor itself. A better set of cams and some head work may improve things considerably, but cylinder pressure (and heat in the piston) will rise as a result, so trading carefully there is important, more info needed.
More Rpm will give more hp, but at the expense of a much higher stress level on the bottom end, plus getting close to valvetrain issues. Oil control is very important to consider on any engine, yet i don't hear much about it on these threads yet.
So in order of importance(to me);
1 good fuel system
2 better valvesprings
3 better exhuast system
4 limit rpm to safe level,(6800 max rev limit?)
5 a better oil system ( billet pump, higher capacity pan, baffles)

Any comments on these items will be greatly appreciated, keep this thread alive and help us all learn how to maximize the hp potential of all types of power adders!!

chevykiller

You're already starting off with a good choice in s/c. By going with a screw blower, you're not going to need the high rpm and I wouldn't mess with valve springs for now. I think keeping at 8 psi, you will be okay with keeping your limiter around 6500 rpm and try to make the shifts around 6K. With your 39 lb injectors, you don't neccessarily need a new fuel system. If you wanted to go new fuel rails and return system, you're not really going to benefit unless you go to 60 lb. injectors. I would add a KB boost-a-pump to your stock set-up and set it for around 20-30% when you want to get after it.

The s/c is going to make you boost and your car is going to want to breathe, so upgrading your exhaust should be #1 on your list. With where you're heading, the stock oil set-up is fine and I don't think a new pump is going to do anything for you. If you want to run pump gas, you may run into problems with 8 psi. I know several guys running pump gas with 6 psi tunes on saleen without any problems but at 8 psi, that saleen is going to be making some power/torque and I would suggest doing 2 tunes. one VERY conservative with factory rev limiter settings (6200 rpm) and no added timing for daily driving and another with a little timing 12-17 degrees maybe and bump the limiter up to 6500-6800 rpm. With the latter tune, run some race gas or maybe a VP110/pump gas mix.

I don't know where you're located, but here in Ca. we only have 91 for premium gas and it sucks. If you have 93 available to you, that helps things out a lot. Do not underestimate how much higher octane assists your engine when making bigger numbers. if you are looking for a daily driver on pump gas, I am curious why you even want to go with the 8 psi set-up. Why not just stick to 6 psi? You'll still have a fast stang that is a reliable workhorse.

EDIT - I also forgot to mention that you are going to also want to get some gears and upgraded suspension this car and they should also be on your list.

gregsdart

Chevykiller, thanks for the reply. I may have misspoken on the total boost i will have, i stepped up one size on the pulley , which may only be 6 psi?
As to changing gears, i want to stay with the stock ratio, maybe up grade after all other items are covered, but get better axles and posi at the same time to match the added power. Being into drag racing for 35 years, i doubt i will be satisfied with street tires for testing at the track, so upgrades in the driveline are on the list as well.
On the valvesprings, i have learned the hard way on my 8 second drag car that the problems are present long before the symptoms, and will upgrade the springs to help out the lifespan on the rollerlifters. Any increase in rev range should IMHO be accompanied by taking a hard look at the valvetrain for possible problems, and as i said before, seemingly minor loss of valvetrain control can have a very negative effect on the life of the valvetrain parts. One way to get added power out of this deal is a small increase in RPM, which may require the fuel/spring upgrade to work well for the long haul.
Sure would like to know if anyone has put the mod motor on a spintron to check for problems. That would definately answer some questions!
Fuel pressure at the injecters falls dangerously low at about 6 to 8 psi boost from what i have read, and that is another concern due to fuel/air distribution and combustion quality,which may have a direct effect on the ability to avoid detonation on lower octane tuneups. Being able to have more pressure at the injectors can also increase fuel flow, and the smaller injecter can be used in higher Hp applications with more pressure to some degree, anyway. Another reason for the fuel pump upgrade is i know the path i will probably take, and that is a bigger all forged component shortblock(5.0) to maximize this blower deal, but that is down the road a while. Still, don't want to spend money on the fuel system twice.
Fuel in our airea is 92 octane max, but i asked for 91 octane tuneups, as i don't fully trust the average quality of fuel available. So with that request, my tuneup hopefully will be on the safe side.
As for the exhaust, I agree, that should go to the top of the list, just need more research and $$!
My one other problem is i have a Vista blue 06 GT on order, (as of 6/22/05!!!!!!!!!!!) and really want to sell this redfire GT and get the color i have wanted all along. So that is why this blower install is on hold. Supposedly the Ford rep is going to be at the dealership today, and maybe i will finally get some action or something!

chevykiller

Good luck and keep me posted on the valve springs cause your 100% right - the pressure is there and there hasn't been any real reasearch (that I could find anyway) on how well the stock set-up accomodates and what long term wear high HP numbers present.