MotoSix

Hi All -

I have been reading and searching for a few nights now and am heading towards a budget(ish) 408 build this summer. Coming from dual overhead cam motors however, I am new to pushrod engine designs...

I have a new-to-me '89 GT that is bone stock right now, and am looking forward to the challenge of shoe-horning that motor in my fox chassis. The car will be 100% "daily driver", stock T5 transmission, EFI, AC, must pass emissions, etc etc etc. This is not to be a race car, and honestly I won't be driving it like one. I simply want to build myself a big toy. So, I have a bunch of questions and would appreciate some ideas...

Block - I plan on running the stock computer with EFI. Does it matter what year block I get, or are they all "identical" for my purposes as long as I get an EFI distributor? 94+ is a "roller block" from what I gather, and I believe this means the push-rod to cam interface is a roller design and not a flat tappet? Like I said, I am just learning this V8 stuff...Suggestions??

Heads - I honestly do not need $1500 heads and do not mind cleaning up the ports off rough castings. Any opinions on these heads for my application?

Cam - I have zero knowledge of this in regards to V8 applications. Street car, EFI, must pass emissions. Suggestions?

Rockers - ??? 1.6 vs 1.7 vs I have no idea. Stock versus roller? Reasonably priced roller suggestions?

Pushrods - stock?

Oil Pan - What is my cheapest option for the Fox chassis? Morroso is like $300?

Headers - Suggestion? Hooker makes a Fox 351 header; who else?

Distributor - I am reading the 351 distributor is larger and longer shaft. Are the MSD (or like) ones plug compatible with the stock 5.0 wiring harness?

Injectors - 24lb injectors on a 255 fuel pump enough for street use? I will run larger fuel lines if I have to with an external fuel pump, but if I don't have to that is great.

Inake - What is the cheapest decent lower intake I can get away with? I plan on simply using a 90 degree elbow at the top in an attempt to clear the stock hood. I know it won't be easy, but at least for now I want to try to do it...

Throttle Body - Suggestion on size? Seems 70mm is exponentially cheaper than an 80mm+. If this were a race car, bigger would be better - but it won't be. Is there a throttle body replacement that emulates a carb plate that incoporates a TPS and idle control valve that mounts directly to the lower intake manifold??

MAF - Same size question.

Damper / Flywheel - I am reading 28 oz is the proper balance weight. I plan on simply having my stock 5.0 flywheel rebalanced, but is there is a specific damper available for this conversion so the belts line up correctly? Or, can a stock 351 damper be used with some form of spacer to line things up correctly?

Fan - Can the stock pulley mounted cooling fan be used?

Vert motor mounts, PS/AC bracket, and possibly a hood are all on my list. What else am I forgetting?

I would like to get a good list lined up so I can purchase things little by little over the next 4 or 5 months, so links to specific items of interest would be most appreciated!

Thanks!

MotoSix

Sorry - One last thing:

Suggestion on a good place for a 408 short block? Specific components I should stay away from? (eg: does it need to be eagle or should it be scat or...?)

It appears you can purchase a short block for almost the same price as building it yourself (except for shipping).

MotoSix

Maybe I should skip the ProComp heads:

http://www.boatstoreonline.com/procomp.html

mmm rice

Good oil pan is the ford racing 351w swap pan with pickup and everything for 150
Id also buy a ford aluminum flywheel....my dads 351w has one and it revs Fast!
Iwould go with bigger injectors also if your going 408
BBK has longtubes for 351w swap for like 350 (dads car also)
Fordstrokers has good shortblocks
For the rest you just need to look around and search alot online

MotoSix

Is the E303 a mild cam that will get me through emissions on this motor?

lso, stock HO 5.0s are hydraulic roller lifters, correct? It looks like older 351 blocks can be updated to this design, but it is not clear to me what that requires?

And it appears the reason you would want update to this design would be to run a larger lift cam?

Sorry for the uneducated questions...

my77stang

hey, check out these heads if your looking for something good and cheap https://mustangforums.com/m_4089360/tm.htm

the procomp heads are garbage castings with poor quality metallurgy - made in china bullcrap.

as for the cam, you want to steer clear of the "alphabet" cams (ford grinds B, E, etc) as they are single pattern, outdated technology. without doing any digging the first thing that pops into my head would be a trick flow stage 1 or maybe the steeda #19 (not sure if its single pattern but i hear its very ECU friendly). you DO want something roller though. 94+ 351 blocks were setup for rollers from the get go and yes early ones can be converted. btw, 5.0 / 302 roller lifters and the parts that hold them in the lifter valley are the same as the 351.

roller rockers yes, 1.6 is stock ratio and thats fine - if you need to use a 1.7 to make power you didnt buy the right cam in the first place =)

i'll try to answer some more of your questions when time permits, but i gotta run

MotoSix

These are not rebranded ProComps? ( I don't mean to be insulting - I just assumed they were relabeled ProComps ).

For a 408 is 205cc+ a good baseline for runner displacement?

I am seeing lots of "retro" kits from Comp etc. Is it a special lifter bore that differentiates the roller versus tappet that is basically what these kits are, or is it something else?

Also, I would imagine the roller lifters are longer requiring shorter-than-stock pushrods?

I read this to mean I could swap over my lifters and assembly if I can get my hands on a 94 or newer block?

Thanks! I am not going to buy a thing until I figure out exactly how everything will go together, so take your time.

my77stang

talking about heads and motor size, for a 408 you could use some hefty ports and make tons of power, BUT you are on a budget and just as important this is going to be a daily driver that you want to be relatively tame. knowing these things i would have no problem using a 185cc head. to compare, AFR makes a 165cc head that is a awsome upgrade for 5.0 guys, so you get an idea of how crappy stock heads are....... any little bit makes a big difference and 185cc heads with 2.02 1.60 valves are one hell of an upgrade from stock.

the best i can tell, the patriot heads are not rebranded. i looked at a few things closely on the ebay heads and the patriot heads. i quickly noticed the way the casting is molded around the head bolt holes and saw that they are in fact NOT the same heads. rumor has it patriot bought old AFR molds, could be true but i have no idea. (that was a very good question to ask btw, thus far i have been going from what i heard and not by what i saw). heres a quick comparison...




i'll break down the difference between roller lifters and retrofit roller lifters.....

OEM style roller lifters


they use a stamped steel plate and little steel links to keep them held down and to keep them from being able to rotate sideways in the lifter hole (like this)



retrofit roller lifters come with their own links built right in, so you can use them in a block that doesnt have holes tapped in the lifter valley for that hold-down plate like in the picture above. the diameter of the holes are the same in the older blocks that used flat tappet style lifters and the later model roller lifter blocks, so there is no concern to worry about there.


and in a motor so you can see the difference in action....



yes, you can use the lifters and retaining hardware from your 5.0 in your 351 / 408 as long as you have a roller (94-up) 351 block. your old pushrods will not work, but with new heads that have guideplates you need to use hardened pushrods anyways.


basically, you could build this 408 with cheap gas friendly compression (9.0:1 or so), a "mild" aftermarket cam, and with better heads and upgraded fuel / exhaust systems you will have one fast *** ride thats very tame when you need it to be.

MotoSix

This is exactly the type of info have been looking for!

After more digging online:

It looks like there are two methods of retrofitting lifters on the older blocks. One is the method you point out which is hyra-roller lifters with link bars. (Is that a hydraulic linked lifter or a solid linked lifter above?)

The other looks to be a retrofit cage like this:



There seems to be two downfalls for this method. One is that you have to drill/tap the block to hold the spider plate in place (no bid deal real), and the other is that comp cams says to "only use [their] cam with this retro design" with these retro lifters.

So I guess the first question is this: Is it possible to use something other than a retro-comp-cam with the spider plate above?

The next one is this: I am seeing the linked hyra-roller lifters for SB Chevys all over the place, but not Fords. Am I just not looking hard enough, or is it possible to use Chevy linked lifters? What am I missing here.

Last quick block question: Does the block need to be notched for the 4.1" stroke?


Next, I found a great tutorial on selecting pushrod lengths here:

http://www.mustangcentral.net/tech/geometry.html

Assuming I do not find a 94+ roller block, I assume the pushrod length will be slightly different for the retrofit lifters and I will need to set those lengths specific to the block, lifter type, and head/rocker setup?


Regarding heads, I think my choice was just made easy with your images above. Those Patriots will fit the ticket nicely. Even though they only look to be 185cc heads with a 58cc combustion chamber volume, and it looks like springs & valves are included and the price is great. If I remember correctly, I read that 351s have a stock head volume of 67(ish)ccs. Instead of modifying the compression through piston dome shape, are there companies that offer different thinckness head gaskets? This is common for motorcycle engines and get them made custom for each engine...Without knowing the deck height it is impossible to figure out the base numbers, but my hope is there is a way to moderate the static compression ratios easily?

Thats enough for now - I am sure there will be more.

S351R13

You can't use the chevy retro lifters. the tie bars are different and a new set will run you close to $100. They also offer special lifters for the reduced base circle cam but, from what I have been told there is only a few cams offered for use with thos elifters.
What the guys are saying above about heads is true. A 408 kit would be useless unless you have the heads to feed it. Stay away from procomps. Right now you can find used TFS or AFR's pretty cheap. Pick which head you are going to run before buying a stroker kit. This way when you order it you can specify the valve reliefs you will need and whether you need a dish or dome piston.
Also, you can't use you stock flywheel. wrong balance and if you try to balance it to you combo you will end up with more in the balance job than you would spend on a new flywheel. You can find a 28oz billet flywheel for in the $150 range. Do not use a stock Ford balancer. They are notorious for coming apart. Find a decent aftermarket. You can buy some that are decent on ebayfor a street motor that are in the $100 range.
Do not drill and tap your lifter valley for the Ford Racing lifter conversion. The reason is that the lifter bores on the 94-up blocks are taller. It affects valve train geometry. Some guys get away with it but, personally, if I am going to spend the money for to build a motor I'm not going to cut corners to safe a few bucks. 94-96 blocks are pretty easy to find.
You will need different pushrods. You'll have to use a pushrod length tool to find the right one for you combo. Asking people what they use can be misleading since they may have had their heads shaved or block decked or some small difference in their combo that woudl have an effect.