Keeping T/C off
05-21-2012, 04:52 PM
#11
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 814
Seems to me it would be just as easy to disable it oin the tune on raceday and reenable it when you are done at the track. Assuming you have a tuner...(you have a Mustang, Why wouldnt you have a tuner...huh? huh?)
05-21-2012, 05:47 PM
#12
3rd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Alaska
Posts: 681
But no, I do not have a tuner haha after buying it then spending more to get her running again than I paid to buy her. It cut my funds down dramatically haha.
05-21-2012, 07:30 PM
#13
TECH SAVANT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Saint Augustine, FL
Posts: 10,938
Having been spending most of my life in a bed lately this was an interesting project--beat the crap out of crummy movies on Netflix.
Here's the schematic:
Here is a video (.avi) showing it in action.
In the video you can see me "turning the ignition switch to RUN", then the 1st timer output going high for 4 seconds, and then the 2nd timer output going high for 0.700ms or so--turning on the transistor and simulating the pressing of the switch (the demo LED lights).
I have never tested this on a New-Edge, just performed the SPICE simulation shown in the video, so some values may need to be tweaked. The pink/black wire to the t/c switch is to be cut and supplied to the circuit as indicated.
An on/off switch for the automated action could be inserted in series with R5, preventing the transistor from turning on...
Here's the schematic:
Here is a video (.avi) showing it in action.
In the video you can see me "turning the ignition switch to RUN", then the 1st timer output going high for 4 seconds, and then the 2nd timer output going high for 0.700ms or so--turning on the transistor and simulating the pressing of the switch (the demo LED lights).
I have never tested this on a New-Edge, just performed the SPICE simulation shown in the video, so some values may need to be tweaked. The pink/black wire to the t/c switch is to be cut and supplied to the circuit as indicated.
An on/off switch for the automated action could be inserted in series with R5, preventing the transistor from turning on...
Last edited by cliffyk; 05-21-2012 at 07:51 PM.
05-21-2012, 08:26 PM
#14
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Saint Augustine, FL
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Here in the flatlands, where "cold" is 45° I don't know why anyone would ever want it on--or for that matter want "it" at all...
05-27-2012, 11:40 PM
#16
My mustang GT 5spd is the first car I have ever owned that is a) Rear Wheel Drive and b) 5 5pd that being said I have only owned the car for about 3 months and sometimes messing around from a stop my tires lose traction and my back end starts to move on me and that is with the traction control ON! I cannot imagine the trouble I could get into with the traction control off. Does it help to launch? On the track? to have it off? What is the advantage of turning it off?
05-28-2012, 12:45 AM
#17
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 173
If the TC is on and you hit the gas hard it'll break the tires loose a bit then it'll cut power to keep it under control. You would turn it off in a racing situation for example. If it's on and you're racing and you launch it'll just cut power and you won't go anywhere.
It's really mostly for bad weather situations to keep you under control. Even though you should be driving carefully in bad weather anyways, it's like an extra safety net to have. It was mostly for high performance cars but now TC is on almost every car, even small economy cars.
It's really mostly for bad weather situations to keep you under control. Even though you should be driving carefully in bad weather anyways, it's like an extra safety net to have. It was mostly for high performance cars but now TC is on almost every car, even small economy cars.
Last edited by Boris91; 05-28-2012 at 12:50 AM.
05-28-2012, 01:36 AM
#18
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Gallifrey
Posts: 1,596
^^
..And disabling completely is a must in any FI application. Ours in even newer generations cut fuel. Must at track to at least temporarily disable. Day to day, might be good to leave on in rainy conditions, should you require it, or if you've neglected your tires.
Otherwise, unlike ABS, which is awesome IMO, it simply serves as a nanny device, and in snow/ice, gets/keeps you stuck.
..And disabling completely is a must in any FI application. Ours in even newer generations cut fuel. Must at track to at least temporarily disable. Day to day, might be good to leave on in rainy conditions, should you require it, or if you've neglected your tires.
Otherwise, unlike ABS, which is awesome IMO, it simply serves as a nanny device, and in snow/ice, gets/keeps you stuck.
05-28-2012, 10:10 AM
#19
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Saint Augustine, FL
Posts: 10,938
That cutting fuel is a bad way of "rev-limiting" is left over conventional wisdom from the days of carburetors and early EFI systems. All modern EFI systems disable injectors to control engine speed and torque. It is actually a much better method than cutting spark as it shut's down the injectors sequentially as described in the shop manual--that way no raw fuel is being injected while the rev/torque-limiting process is in effect:
As there is no fuel injected the next time the plug fires there will bothing in the cylinder but compressed air.
The PCM does this in a nice orderly fashion, and as described below in a "round robin" sequence to protect the exhaust valves and catalytic converters. Here is a snippet from the EECV PCM source code, defining operation of the injector off control function:
This is actually from a 2006 tune, however the code for this routine was last modified in 2002.
The problem with cutting the spark is that the injectors will continue to supply fuel while the spark is cut. This is acceptable for short periods as in waiting for the green light at the strip, however if allowed to continue for too long it will damaged the front O2 sensors
and the cats. Obviously the latter is not a problem if you don't have any.
That's why Ford (and most of not all other manufacturers) chose to use intelligent spark control rather than just cut the ignition, They would not have done it that way if it was going to harm the engine, that would be a pretty stupid thing to do...
As there is no fuel injected the next time the plug fires there will bothing in the cylinder but compressed air.
The PCM does this in a nice orderly fashion, and as described below in a "round robin" sequence to protect the exhaust valves and catalytic converters. Here is a snippet from the EECV PCM source code, defining operation of the injector off control function:
This is actually from a 2006 tune, however the code for this routine was last modified in 2002.
Code:
/**############################################################################# ** ** FILE NAME : tqctl_injoff.c ** Ford Motor Company 2002 ** ** FUNCTION : tqctl_injoff (torque control injectors off) ** ** ABSTRACT ** ** Whenever cylinders are turned off thru INJ_CUT_REQ, the open loop fuel logic ** schedules a lean air fuel in order to protect the catalyst from over ** temperature (don't run rich if you have excess air from cut out cylinders). ** Although this may be good for the catalyst, running lean during a high ** speed/load condition may have adverse affects on cylinder valve temperatures. ** To avoid possible exhaust valve overtemp condition, this logic allows the ** injector cutout bit pattern (INJ_CUT_REQ) to be rotated to ensure that all ** engine valves are equally cooled. Every INJ_HOLD number of engine events ** (2 crank rotations), the bit pattern is rotated left one bit. INJ_HOLD ** should be short enough to provide cooling, and long enough to minimize ** transient fueling effects of rotating disabled cylinders. A calibratable ** engine speed function (FNINJ_N_LIM) is provided to enable the round robin ** injector cutout during high speed conitions, otherwise a set (non rotating) ** method may be preferred during low speed operation for drivablility "feel" ** concerns. ** ** In addition, this logic will upon the first request to cut out a cylinder by ** the torque control logic, automatically rotates the cylinder cut out pattern ** to align a cutout bit with the actual bit in INJ_CUT_REQ that foreground fuel ** will consider on the next PIP inturrupt. This logic in effect cuts out the ** next available cylinder, so it is useful for traction control and in general ** a more accurate torque calculation. ** * ** 8 Cylinder pattern example: ** ============================================================= ** ** Value of INJ_CTR, : ** (sequence number) 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 ** ** Injector number: [8] [4] [5] [6] [2] [7] [3] [1] (4.6L FIRING ORDER) ** ** 16 bit position value: 128 64 32 16 8 4 2 1 ** (word) ** -------------------------------------------- DEFAULT ** INJON=8 -> | X...X | X | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | WORD SCALAR ** -------------------------------------------- ** INJON=7 -> | X...X | X | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | = INJ7_ON = 1 ** --------------------------------------------- ** INJON=6 -> | X...X | X | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | = INJ6_ON = 17 ** -------------------------------------------- ** INJON=5 -> | X...X | X | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | = INJ5_ON = 21 ** -------------------------------------------- ** INJON=4 -> | X...X | X | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | = INJ4_ON = 85 ** -------------------------------------------- ** INJON=3 -> | X...X | X | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | = INJ3_ON = 117 ** -------------------------------------------- ** INJON=2 -> | X...X | X | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | = INJ2_ON = 119 ** -------------------------------------------- ** INJON=1 -> | X...X | X | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | = INJ1_ON = 127 ** -------------------------------------------- ** INJON=0 -> | X...X | X | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | = INJ0_ON = 255 ** -------------------------------------------- ** (0 = ON) ( INJ8_ON = 0 ; INJ9_ON = 0 ) ** (1 = OFF) ** (x = don't care, assume 0)
and the cats. Obviously the latter is not a problem if you don't have any.
That's why Ford (and most of not all other manufacturers) chose to use intelligent spark control rather than just cut the ignition, They would not have done it that way if it was going to harm the engine, that would be a pretty stupid thing to do...
05-29-2012, 12:35 PM
#20
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Gallifrey
Posts: 1,596
Let me just clarify here, I was under the impression, possibly mistaken, that the newedge and S197(at least earlier 05-09s anyhow) used a round robin approach, but that a step involved cut fuel in such a way as it could still cause catastrophic detonation should you be FI. From what I interpret you're saying, this is not the case?
The specifics as to how it was doing so was not previously researched by myself, so that's good to know. But you're talking(well, writing anyhow) to a programmer, general IT guy, and former electrical engineering student. I've only tried starting to be a gear head in the past few years, so many of the finite ins and outs put me in the "special" section here still.. Hence my scouring of different sections, and even forums, although this one is of course home.
The specifics as to how it was doing so was not previously researched by myself, so that's good to know. But you're talking(well, writing anyhow) to a programmer, general IT guy, and former electrical engineering student. I've only tried starting to be a gear head in the past few years, so many of the finite ins and outs put me in the "special" section here still.. Hence my scouring of different sections, and even forums, although this one is of course home.