Street vs Strip heads, where's the line?
02-21-2005, 01:28 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10
Street vs Strip heads, where's the line?
Complete Mustang NOOB here so please be gentle when I say something completely stupid here in just a minute. Sorry, this post will no doubt be too long. My current project is a rather high dollar 53F100 streetrod. I’m shopping for a 94-95 GT 5spd coupe now.
I’m 40 something and I made a living as an auto mechanic before the MAF was invented. My comments may be jaded by my experience with carbureted motors only. I see the rules have changed. You guys are getting some outrageous performance from these things. I’m impressed! Before I forget, I have been reading posts here for days. Thanks for the education already. But I have questions that aren’t quite answered yet.
My goal is a stang with awesome street throttle response that doesn’t embarrass me when I visit the strip occasionally. (1/4 mile) I’d like ETs in the 12s eventually if that is reasonable. I’m guessing about 300HP/TQ is what I need eventually. Can I have all this in a car that does not demand to be tweaked every week? Wifey is a good sport. She’ll let me throw the cash without much fuss. She only requires a 5speed and to not need a pit crew to accompany here when she takes it for an occasional ride to work. Seems fair.
I’d like to throw a few thousand dollars in mods right after I find my car, and not be forced to spend a bunch more immediately after. I’ve read the MM&FF head articles etc. I can see the head choices are just endless. The AFR 165s and TF etc just blow away the FRP products on the dyno. Yet even the FRP products look like a quantum leap over the old 130 intake ports I’m used to from the old days. I know from past that there is always a line somewhere you can’t cross before the streetability starts fading REAL fast. The OEM engineers aren’t completely stupid when it comes to reliable street performance. If they use a 130 port, then I probably don’t need 200+ on the street.
To the point. I’ll definitely spend some cash on the project, but I don’t want to spend a pile of money on mods for the stock iron heads, and then throw it all away in three months when I buy the heads I should have bought before. I’ll make mistakes, but I don’t want to buy everything three times. Proper head selection seems like step one? It seems foolish to spend too much money modding stock heads. The GT-40 303Y heads seem like a nice candidate at current prices. Are these prices temporary from FRP? You guys seem to love your AFR and TW heads with bigger runners and sometimes valves. You recommend them over and over. Is that what I really need for the goals I stated above?
Way too much for one post so I better stop now. Thanks again. The knowledge on this forum is incredible. I’ll shut up and go back to reading old threads now.
I’m 40 something and I made a living as an auto mechanic before the MAF was invented. My comments may be jaded by my experience with carbureted motors only. I see the rules have changed. You guys are getting some outrageous performance from these things. I’m impressed! Before I forget, I have been reading posts here for days. Thanks for the education already. But I have questions that aren’t quite answered yet.
My goal is a stang with awesome street throttle response that doesn’t embarrass me when I visit the strip occasionally. (1/4 mile) I’d like ETs in the 12s eventually if that is reasonable. I’m guessing about 300HP/TQ is what I need eventually. Can I have all this in a car that does not demand to be tweaked every week? Wifey is a good sport. She’ll let me throw the cash without much fuss. She only requires a 5speed and to not need a pit crew to accompany here when she takes it for an occasional ride to work. Seems fair.
I’d like to throw a few thousand dollars in mods right after I find my car, and not be forced to spend a bunch more immediately after. I’ve read the MM&FF head articles etc. I can see the head choices are just endless. The AFR 165s and TF etc just blow away the FRP products on the dyno. Yet even the FRP products look like a quantum leap over the old 130 intake ports I’m used to from the old days. I know from past that there is always a line somewhere you can’t cross before the streetability starts fading REAL fast. The OEM engineers aren’t completely stupid when it comes to reliable street performance. If they use a 130 port, then I probably don’t need 200+ on the street.
To the point. I’ll definitely spend some cash on the project, but I don’t want to spend a pile of money on mods for the stock iron heads, and then throw it all away in three months when I buy the heads I should have bought before. I’ll make mistakes, but I don’t want to buy everything three times. Proper head selection seems like step one? It seems foolish to spend too much money modding stock heads. The GT-40 303Y heads seem like a nice candidate at current prices. Are these prices temporary from FRP? You guys seem to love your AFR and TW heads with bigger runners and sometimes valves. You recommend them over and over. Is that what I really need for the goals I stated above?
Way too much for one post so I better stop now. Thanks again. The knowledge on this forum is incredible. I’ll shut up and go back to reading old threads now.
02-21-2005, 01:38 PM
#2
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RE: Street vs Strip heads, where's the line?
Asking for 12's isn't asking for much.. if 300 hp is your goal that can be accomplished with the stock heads honestly. The heads aren't really your biggest factor in drivability, its the cam.
Something like a GT40 head sounds like it may be your best choice if your on a budget... if you don't mind spending bucks for a set of heads then the AFR 165's would be a good choice for a 302.
If you want a 300 hp motor... just put together a 302 with GT 40 heads, Performer RPM intake, a cam designed for roughly 2500 - 6000 rpm... something with a lift in the low-mid .500's and dur around 225 @ .050 lsa around 112. You'll have a good but noticable idle and power up to 6k rpm. With a good induction and exhaust 350 hp isn't out of the question with a good idle. With a medium sized cam like that a set of big heads won't do a lot for you as you won't be pumping the lift or dur to really need them.
Something like a GT40 head sounds like it may be your best choice if your on a budget... if you don't mind spending bucks for a set of heads then the AFR 165's would be a good choice for a 302.
If you want a 300 hp motor... just put together a 302 with GT 40 heads, Performer RPM intake, a cam designed for roughly 2500 - 6000 rpm... something with a lift in the low-mid .500's and dur around 225 @ .050 lsa around 112. You'll have a good but noticable idle and power up to 6k rpm. With a good induction and exhaust 350 hp isn't out of the question with a good idle. With a medium sized cam like that a set of big heads won't do a lot for you as you won't be pumping the lift or dur to really need them.
02-21-2005, 06:28 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10
RE: Street vs Strip heads, where's the line?
Thanks Joe, that was helpful. Just a couple more questions for you or anyone else.
1. What kind of fuel mileage would what you just described achieve? With gears in the 3.73-4.11 range? Just curious, I know I can't have it all. I don't even know what a stock stang gets.
2. In your estimation, what are the minimum mods required to truly benefit from the potential of an AFR 165 head? Approximate cam specs and other requirements?
I suspect I might be better off investing the $500 saved on heads into suspension/traction improvements. My last drag car was nothing but a tire smoke show with poor ETs. Don't want to make that mistake again.
Thanks
1. What kind of fuel mileage would what you just described achieve? With gears in the 3.73-4.11 range? Just curious, I know I can't have it all. I don't even know what a stock stang gets.
2. In your estimation, what are the minimum mods required to truly benefit from the potential of an AFR 165 head? Approximate cam specs and other requirements?
I suspect I might be better off investing the $500 saved on heads into suspension/traction improvements. My last drag car was nothing but a tire smoke show with poor ETs. Don't want to make that mistake again.
Thanks
02-21-2005, 06:54 PM
#4
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RE: Street vs Strip heads, where's the line?
well even a stock 5.0 would benefit from AFR 165 heads, its just that those heads really shine in the high rpms with big lift... but with big lift and rpm comes reduced valvetrain life, worse idle, less power down low, etc.
If you want specific recommendations on what part numbers to buy and where to get them you should look up vfast... he's got more hands on 5.0 experience than probably any of us.
If you want specific recommendations on what part numbers to buy and where to get them you should look up vfast... he's got more hands on 5.0 experience than probably any of us.
02-21-2005, 07:10 PM
#5
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RE: Street vs Strip heads, where's the line?
thanks md!
funny thing alot of guys are going back to carb set ups mostly guys in the upper 400 hp's+...
one think that will hurt you in your pick of car is the 94-95 'puter are not very friendly and the car is heavy..but not is all lost....
a cam with a tighter centerline will rev faster and help in getting the ole heavy girl going....if your doing a complete engine a 351 would be a better start.......but if your going with the 94-95 here are just a few suggestions..but beware I don't know want you want from the car
302
afr 165's gasket matched 61cc
cam... stage 1 cam
msd ignition 6al
equal length headers..mac I guess JBA is the sh it
a 2.5" dr gas x-pipe
cobra intake or a gt-40 or professional products intake
24# injectors ( blue)
65 or 70mm throttle body ( professional products) hawiiracing.com
76 cl maf
tweecer...a must (www.tweecer.com)
low ohm wires a must
funny thing alot of guys are going back to carb set ups mostly guys in the upper 400 hp's+...
one think that will hurt you in your pick of car is the 94-95 'puter are not very friendly and the car is heavy..but not is all lost....
a cam with a tighter centerline will rev faster and help in getting the ole heavy girl going....if your doing a complete engine a 351 would be a better start.......but if your going with the 94-95 here are just a few suggestions..but beware I don't know want you want from the car
302
afr 165's gasket matched 61cc
cam... stage 1 cam
msd ignition 6al
equal length headers..mac I guess JBA is the sh it
a 2.5" dr gas x-pipe
cobra intake or a gt-40 or professional products intake
24# injectors ( blue)
65 or 70mm throttle body ( professional products) hawiiracing.com
76 cl maf
tweecer...a must (www.tweecer.com)
low ohm wires a must
02-21-2005, 08:35 PM
#6
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10
RE: Street vs Strip heads, where's the line?
"funny thing alot of guys are going back to carb set ups mostly guys in the upper 400 hp's+...
one think that will hurt you in your pick of car is the 94-95 'puter are not very friendly and the car is heavy..but not is all lost...."
Vfast
Carbs are probably easier and cheaper to deal with when you get up to outrageous power numbers. High stall speed converters, no low end required etc. Carbs are not the way to fly for a street machine. I've built carbed street rods for almost 30 years. Every one of them slurped fuel real bad. The EFI throttle response isn't there, neither is the fuel mileage. It's time I stepped into this century.
I'm just looking for a car that can hit the 12s on the strip, and not be a big hassle to drive on the street. My question was whether you really need AFR heads for that. And whether AFRs would offer significantly better performance than GTS on the street, where I'll rarely see 5000RPM.
Thanks,
Anyway, I'm back to confused again. Are you guys saying AFR165 will outperform GTs in any RPM range? There's no loss of low RPM torque and throttle response with the AFR? If so, that's great. I'm just not used to it.
one think that will hurt you in your pick of car is the 94-95 'puter are not very friendly and the car is heavy..but not is all lost...."
Vfast
Carbs are probably easier and cheaper to deal with when you get up to outrageous power numbers. High stall speed converters, no low end required etc. Carbs are not the way to fly for a street machine. I've built carbed street rods for almost 30 years. Every one of them slurped fuel real bad. The EFI throttle response isn't there, neither is the fuel mileage. It's time I stepped into this century.
I'm just looking for a car that can hit the 12s on the strip, and not be a big hassle to drive on the street. My question was whether you really need AFR heads for that. And whether AFRs would offer significantly better performance than GTS on the street, where I'll rarely see 5000RPM.
Thanks,
Anyway, I'm back to confused again. Are you guys saying AFR165 will outperform GTs in any RPM range? There's no loss of low RPM torque and throttle response with the AFR? If so, that's great. I'm just not used to it.
02-21-2005, 08:44 PM
#7
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RE: Street vs Strip heads, where's the line?
as far as the carb....I'm preety sure you have over carb some of you car...the key to a good street carb is having 4 coener adjustments on the carbs..
give me til tuesday and I'll come up with a 325-350hp plan
give me til tuesday and I'll come up with a 325-350hp plan
02-22-2005, 01:23 AM
#8
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Posts: 299
RE: Street vs Strip heads, where's the line?
300hp is easily attainable, but as stated the computer will be the problem. The 94-95 computers are a PIA to my understanding, an A9L swap would be adviseable as it has better timing and fuel maps from the get go and it will accept virtually any chip or aftermarket piggyback unit. I would steet clear of anything too exotic, stay with the factory go fast parts like GT40 parts. GT40 crate motors kick out 285 and thats a modest cam with small headers, get some long tubes, and a little more cam and your at 300 with reliability and no need for a pit crew. If you want real reasonable, hunt the salvage yards for a 1997-99 Explorer or Mountaineer and take the whole top end. GT40P heads and Explorer upper and lower intake can be had for $150-200. The GT40P heads outflow the regular GT40 heads and the intake is very close. You will however have to pop for "P" specific headers so you can get to the spark plugs.
Check out the link below for all the head information your heart desires lol.
use the drop down menu to compare heads as well.
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/630.shtml
Another thing to remember here is once you go past a certain level then your looking at bigger injectors, MAF, TB, and so on and then reliability goes out the window without an aftermarket ECM or piggyback system.
Check out the link below for all the head information your heart desires lol.
use the drop down menu to compare heads as well.
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/630.shtml
Another thing to remember here is once you go past a certain level then your looking at bigger injectors, MAF, TB, and so on and then reliability goes out the window without an aftermarket ECM or piggyback system.
02-22-2005, 01:27 AM
#9
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RE: Street vs Strip heads, where's the line?
ORIGINAL: fenders
"funny thing alot of guys are going back to carb set ups mostly guys in the upper 400 hp's+...
one think that will hurt you in your pick of car is the 94-95 'puter are not very friendly and the car is heavy..but not is all lost...."
Vfast
Carbs are probably easier and cheaper to deal with when you get up to outrageous power numbers. High stall speed converters, no low end required etc. Carbs are not the way to fly for a street machine. I've built carbed street rods for almost 30 years. Every one of them slurped fuel real bad. The EFI throttle response isn't there, neither is the fuel mileage. It's time I stepped into this century.
I'm just looking for a car that can hit the 12s on the strip, and not be a big hassle to drive on the street. My question was whether you really need AFR heads for that. And whether AFRs would offer significantly better performance than GTS on the street, where I'll rarely see 5000RPM.
Thanks,
Anyway, I'm back to confused again. Are you guys saying AFR165 will outperform GTs in any RPM range? There's no loss of low RPM torque and throttle response with the AFR? If so, that's great. I'm just not used to it.
"funny thing alot of guys are going back to carb set ups mostly guys in the upper 400 hp's+...
one think that will hurt you in your pick of car is the 94-95 'puter are not very friendly and the car is heavy..but not is all lost...."
Vfast
Carbs are probably easier and cheaper to deal with when you get up to outrageous power numbers. High stall speed converters, no low end required etc. Carbs are not the way to fly for a street machine. I've built carbed street rods for almost 30 years. Every one of them slurped fuel real bad. The EFI throttle response isn't there, neither is the fuel mileage. It's time I stepped into this century.
I'm just looking for a car that can hit the 12s on the strip, and not be a big hassle to drive on the street. My question was whether you really need AFR heads for that. And whether AFRs would offer significantly better performance than GTS on the street, where I'll rarely see 5000RPM.
Thanks,
Anyway, I'm back to confused again. Are you guys saying AFR165 will outperform GTs in any RPM range? There's no loss of low RPM torque and throttle response with the AFR? If so, that's great. I'm just not used to it.
just for you to know if you already didnt, there are EFI cars nowadays running 7s and using less fuel than carb motors.
EFI is the future.
02-22-2005, 01:30 PM
#10
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10
RE: Street vs Strip heads, where's the line?
Absolutely agree Dbeck. EFI is not only the future, it is the present. I remember when the first "performance cars" and I use the term very loosely, went EFI. The ECM would often fight you until you just gave up and slammed a Holley 750 and older distributer on it. We were thrilled if our carbed 13 second car got much over 10 MPG. A carbed car with big heads and a cam just can't deal well with sudden opening of the throttle blades on the street. It took a lot of tweaking to get something you could live with onthe street, and you couldn't afford to drive it much when you were done. Every now and then you would hear someone bragging they got 20mpg. Whe you called them out to prove it, you usually found they were bad at gas MPG math. The good old days are right now.