Unwanted Expertise

Hey guys, me and all my buddies currently are building up our Lt1 Camaro's so I'm a little bit out of knowledge area here, but turning wrenches is turning wrenches so I'm helping my friend build a 5.0 Mustang for his brother. My buddies brother just got rid of an '03 Cobra and decided he wants to build a 5.0 Mustang instead because he likes the older style better. Right now, we're just in the planning stages and we have to get everything together before we fly down there on our christmas break. We currently attend a local automotive school for an associate degree in applied automotive science. We have access to a complete garage and lifts so a place to do this isn't a problem, we just need to make sure we are going about building up the car right.

Right now, we are going to be looking for local cars that make a good canidate to pick-up. Obvisously, a mechanically sound vechile and straight body would be the best starting point, but we've came to the conclusion that even if it doesn't run right, we're probally going to be replacing almost everything anyways so that only makes our total price for the project go down. We have about $40,000 US to work with and whatever is left over, we get to pocket for our own projects.

Here's so far here's what we are trying to acomplish:
1) My buddies brother wants 450+ rwhp.
Obvisously, a 1/4 mi. time would be easier to work towards but some people like dyno racing I guess

2) When complete, it need's to be streetable. He lives near Orlando, Fl and we would like to drive it down there for him to prove how streetable this car is. We live in Kokomo, In, about 45 minutes north of Indianapolis. But obvisously, we realize that this may not be possible. So we have a trailor, just in case. The owner isn't wanting to be traveling across country with it, but would like it to be streetable to drive it around town if need be.

3) It needs to be reliable. Obvisously, without preventive maintence, anything will eventually destroy itself. But he doesn't want to be replacing parts every other week because they aren't strong enough for the application. So anything that might become a problem needs to be upgraded, before it shows it's ugly head. We can't finish the car, if a part may break on the trip down there, or even a year after he has it. Anyone have some input on what needs to be addressed, so we don't over look it?


Would you go about building the 5.0 (N/a, spray, or blown) or would you look into say swapping in an '03+ Supercharged Cobra engine and tranny down into it and adding bolt-on's and a smaller pulley? Any other engine options that would be more reliable. Remember guys, it has to be streetable. And why?

When we are looking for a car, what year would be the most ideal for this type of set-up? He doesn't want the newer bodystyle with a 5.0 in it, but he's unsure on notch or hatch back. He might even be interested in a convertable, with brings up a bunch of other obstacles.

If we're going to do an engine swap, would it be easier (i.e. cost effective) to pick up a 4-cylinder car since most of the drivetrain is going to be replaced with upgraded parts anyways? Remember, we get what's left over. So the cheaper we can accomplish this, the more money we make. But nothing is going to be compromised just to save money. It needs to be reliable.

Suspension? What needs to happen there? I'm only up on F-body parts so I don't really know what to do there yet. Thanks guys.

waxyourboard

I'll take a first stab at this, for one, does he want the Fox body style? or SN95? Foxes are lighter, and the '90-'92 had forged internals, so that's one less step you might have to go through.

For 450 horse streetable, you might want to think about swapping a 351 into a body (yes, a four cylinder body would work, and notches are the lightest) and adding a turbo (or two) or a supercharger. I was never a fan of nitrous, although it is a cheaper way to achieve your 450... temporarily, and it would be more 'streetable' You could even bore/stroke out that 351.

I dunno about suspension or engine internals, but for the trans you could set him up with the same 6-speed that (t-56 i'm pretty sure) and i think they have conversion kits for 351s in Fox Bodies.

But definitely, more cubes, and a power adder would be nice (check into Kenne Bell superchargers -- they're twin screw, stay fairly cool, and give almost 100% boost at idle. I know they make some sick twin turbo kits too..)

TastePAINt88

Sounds good. 450 HP isnt too hard to get on a 5.0, just need to know what to do. To cover it all, Ill start with the engine of an idea you could consider.

You could get a 5.0 from somewhere from 89-93 and work with that base. The motor can be reworked really nicely. As you probably know from LS-1 engines high mileage engines should be honed from the start when rebuilding, the whole machining proccess depends on the shape of the engine.

Going N/A you could stroke it to 347 or 331, and free up the intake with a 80 mm MAF, 70mm Throttle body, Edelbrock or trick flow upper and lower intake, and Some edelbrock performer heads. Open up the valve train with a little on the aggresive side for the cam (not too radical if youre keeping it street), then open up the valve train with 1.7 Roller rockers. New valve covers needed for 1.7s though, or modify stock valve covers. Let the engine breath, get some Shortie headers (find the cheapest out of the quality, such as borla, bbk, eddy, hooker, look for price) and a full flowmaster exhaust will get it a roar and free some power.

With all the extra power watch the cooling and oiling system, like you said, turning wrenches is turning wrenches, apply what you know from LS-1.

Of course the stroker could be skipped and instead run a Centrifrugal Supercharger. That way you dont loose the gas until you floor the pedal, maintaining streetability. Thats another option for you.

The suspension can be worked based on what you will use the car for, for great handiling a coil over conversion and some lower control arms will let you control the car and keep it on the ground. New caster camber plates with a Tubular kmember and new arms will give the control even better if you wanted to go that far.

Stiffen up the chassis with full Subframe connectors at least. Seriously, with high power you run the risk of twisting the frame of a foxbody if you dont stiffen it up. Subframe connectors, and a strut tower brace will work great, and if the guy that the car is for can handle having a roll cage thats great too.

New drivetrain is in order, and im getting tired a lil bit. A Tremec 5-Speed bolts right up and will last 500-550 hp. a T-56 is an poption for a 6-speed tranny, but the bell housing needs to be modified, as well as a 3 inch shorter driveshaft along with speedometer cable extenders and much more hassle for the T-56, its good if hes gonna spend time of the freeway alot, but otherwise it costs quite a bit to get in.

8.8 Axle with 3.73 gears or 4.10 would do great, with an Auburn Posi to lock the both tires together will help get it going. Theres so much more you can do, its endless with a mustang

sgt_pepper17

I agree. I think that the more simple you keep the build the better it will go. Stiffening the suspension is a must. Look into the springs and shocks as well. I think he will be much happier with a 302 stroked to a 347. The 351 weighs about 150 lbs more than the 302 and you can get comparable power out of a 347 so for handling a 302 would be better. Here's something you should know. A 351 uses a different imbalance on the flywheel. A 302 up until 1981 uses a 28oz imbalance, a 5.0 1982 and up uses a 50oz imbalance on the flywheel/ harmonic balancer. Can't remember what a 351 uses but that would be good to know if you decide to go that route. Using the stock block is a good idea. I wouldn't go with a cam any smaller than 230 duration on either side @.050 lift. Anything smaller will disapoint. I would also look for a cam with a 110 centerline or even a bit smaller... larger centerlines tend to be lazy but really good for nitrous. As for heads... trick flow makes a nice kit for the kind of power you should be looking for. A supercharger or turbo kit would be cool but I'm a big fan of N/A or nitrous. A nitrous kit allows for stip use and better mpg on the road. I'ld also consider long tubes, an x-pipe, and some Flowmaster 40 series two chamber mufflers... put some turndowns right after the mufflers... some 3" would work great, they'll pound the ground. Wheels and tires... get some good 17's or 18's if they'll fit and put some low pro's on it. IDK if you want a strip car or a road bitin car but if you want to handle great and turn in respectable ETA's go with the bigger tires and lo pros... For a gear.... 4.10 or higher is the best... my buddy has a 3.73 and he's not a fan.. 4.56's would be bad ***....

Erik

KovacMotorsports

Hmmmm a budget project thats reliable sounds like its right up my alley. Ok here goes. It would be much easier to use a roller that was an original 5.0/ 5speed car then to hunt down then modify the parts needed to convert a 4cyl car. You can find complete rollers in great shape less motor and trans for $900 to $1500.00 and have a great starting point. I run across them all the time. You might even get lucky and find one with a few mods already done.

450 rwhp is the goal I see. Well lets start with the engine. If its streetability you want and strength on a budget is a concern this is going to have to be a very well balanced project. Somtimes those goals can be very hard to achieve all in the same project. With that said I'd definetly go with a centrifical supercharger. The reason being is that it doesnt really begin to make boost till after 3000- 3500 rpm and even then its just begining, so street driving and normal highway cruising in O.D. really wont be effected and the engine wont have a load on it most of the time thereby extending its life and making it very reliable. Also this combination has been done so many ways and is proven time and time again. Now that we have that established.

Your safe at this power level with the stock block. Since you have the money I would think that a full maching of the block would be in order. You could probably cheap out here and be fine but since youve got a good budget the added few hundred wont hurt you. I'd have the block hottanked, inspected, new freeze plugs & cam bearings installed, Generally 5.0 blocks are in pretty good shape even the high mileage ones. I would have it bored and honed to no more than .030" oversize. If the machinest feels it neccessary than get it decked. Just for extra insurance I would install a Trick Flow main cap girdle kit with ARP main cap bolts and have the block align honed.

The rotating assembly is really a matter of choice. Heres where the budget (or how much money you want to pocket) would come in. You could go one of 2 ways and either would be fine for your needs. First the stock crank is fine for this power level so if you want to save a few bucks do this

Use the Stock crank and have it cut only if needed, have the oil holes chamfered and have it polished.

Use a set of stock length Scat forged 4340 steel connecting rods with ARP bolts as the stock rods are the weakest link.

Use a set of Probe brand .030" oversize flattop forged pistons, (forged pistons are a good idea in a blown application) Probe makes a great piston and it saves you at least a $100.00 bucks over any of the other brand names. Ive seen these pistons perform just as well as the higher priced ones that make you pay extra just for a name.

Use a set of Speed Pro or Total Seal Classic Plasma Moly rings. Plasma Moly is more durable than standard cast iron or plain molly and they are more forgiving when it comes to detination if you happen to encounter that while tuning this engine or from bad gas.

For bearings I'd use some Clevite CL-77 main and rod bearings

Then to finish it off add a Powerforce SFI approved balancer



Then have the whole assembly balanced. Of course you'll have to take the flywheel in with it. This should give you a really solid rotating assembly for around $1000.00-$1100.00 You cant buy a ready made stroker kit with forged pistons and those strong of rods for that kinda money.

If you think a stroker kit might be a way to go, they make plenty of good kits that cost less than buying everything separate. Though be prepared to pay $1700.00 to $1800.00 for a kit with the same quality components as the assembly I outlined above. Personally I think the money you would save by just using the cheaper stock crank assembly I outlined above would be better spent elsewhere. I dont think the 30-50 add HP is really worth the additional $600.00 in a Supercharged engine as the boost will more than make up for it.

If you want to spend money where it counts and will add life to the engine use a melling h.v. pump and a 7 ot. oil pan and matching pickup. This type of kit will set you back about 350.00 - 375.00 including the cost of the pump. Its something I would do with your budget. For those on a tighter budget the stock pan with the new pump is just fine for this application.

Now onto the all important valvetrain and heads. I would just buy the Trick Flow Track heat kit and be done with it. This comes with the heads, head bolts, cam timing chain, Intake, pushrods roller rockers, gaskets and even valvecovers. This kit is a great deal for the money. The camshaft is the perfect size for the N/A street driven engines as well as excellent for Supercharged street engines. This is because of the 112 LDA and rather generous split lift and duration of the intake and exhaust lobes. The one change I would make is to have them substitute 1.7 rockers for the 1.6 when you order the kit. One word of warning is to check valvetrain geometry before final assembly as Ive experienced the need in a few instances for different length pushrods then those supplied in the kit. This is especially important if the block has been decked. Ive always been able to exchange the pushrods even up for the length Ive needed, so this isn't a problem. This kit will set you back about $2200.00

Next I would add some FFRP hyd roller lifters to round out the valvetrain. you can usually find these for $120.00-$130.00

As for the fuel system, if you go the Supercharger route as Ive suggested I would use the FFRP 42lb injectors that can be found for around $300.00 if you shop around.

Next I would add a quality brand name adjustable fuel pressure regulator of your choice.

The Supercharger should be a Vortec kit with the V-2 S trim unit. this good for 8-10 psi boost. Probably closer to the 8 psi level with the flow characteristic of this engine combo. The polished version of this kit is around $2700.00 to $2800.00. Piece of advice would be dump the MSD BTM unit and FMU that come with this kit as your fuel and timing requirements can be taken care of with a good tune. More on the tune later.

Next I would highly Recommend the SCT BIG AIR BA2400 MAF sensor that will set you back $230.00. Ive found it to be one of the highest quality, most accurate, and easliy tuned afftermarket MAF currently available. Also Im not a big fan of calibrated MAFs as all the can be done with a proper tune, which Ive found is the best most accurate way adress this IMO. If you dont have access to a tuner the calibrated MAF's are the next best option.

Next, I would think replacing the well used factory intank fuel pump would be a good idea. I would use a the brand name pump of your choice with incresed flow to 155 lph. I know that a few of you hardcore Stang guys are saying nooo a 190lph would be better, but this pump will be more than enough when you add the inline pump that comes with the Supercharger.

Once the car is completed it should be tuned on a dyno by an experienced tuner. this usually costs in the nieghborhood of $500.00 to $600.00.

As for the ignition I think a nice MSD box and matching MSD coil plus the usual aftermarket components such as good plugs,wires, cap, and rotor will work just fine nothing special need here.

Replace the usual accessories for good measure. Like the alternator, starter, battery, and water pump with good quality parts. I would use a high flow aluminum pump for added cooling just due to the HP level.

Most of the rest has been covered in previous replies to this post.

Id go with a Tremec TKO 500 with the usual Spec or King Cobra clutch and pressure plate kit. Geta new flywheel or ahve the used one if it comes with the car you buy resurfaced. Get an adjustable clutch cable and quandrant kits. Top the whole thing off with a PRO 5.0 shifter (the best all around shifter IMO).

Have the rearend rebuilt with Moser or simi

nitrous_bob

a stroker w/ an "s" trim will net about 500+ at the wheels. and run 10's at about 130

255 pump and 36 lb inj. decent aluminum heads, w/ good port work and leave the compression alone, maybe deck a little, but you don't want gm compression (no offense) not worth it.

car= $5k motor and blower = $8k.......whatcha gonna do w/ the leftovers?

KovacMotorsports

I totally agree about the decking and compression and given most peoples experiences, including mine the 5.0 block sually donesnt need to be decked. The 5.0 block even with high miles are usually pretty sqaure and within spec's. I was merely stating he should have it checked just to make sure and if its not within tolerances then only have enough material removed to square the block. This shouldnt significantly raise the compression ratio enough to worry about. Its particularly important to have an even deck height on an engine running boost otherwise you could end up blowing head gaskets or worse.

Doc

www.kovacmotorsports.com