351 in a 67?
10-16-2009, 07:33 PM
#11
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Marquette Mi
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Well the mounts under that Cleveland are the same ones that were holding the 302 that was in there before. 351W uses the same mounts, so its a bolt in deal with the right headers. The W has a taller deck than the 302 so the headers need to be different to fit a W, in other words 302 headers wont always work. Not a problem though, since headers for a 351W will work and will fit in a 67, just get them for a 69 with or without a 4 speed.
As for Cleveland heads, they are a decent enough head for stock, even the 2V flows much better than any stock W head, and better than some aftermarket heads. Of course some aftermarket W heads flow better, but not all of them. The 4V heads have even fewer aftermarket W heads that flow better, and if need be, you can modify the ports in the 4V heads by making them smaller, and thus improving velocity. 4V heads have a dead spot in the lower part of the port, it doesnt affect a street engine so much but if you want every last bit of power from them in a race application, the popular trick is filling them in and using a special plate in the exhaust.
You wont hear of any W heads needing to be made smaller, the W has more aftermarket stuff because it needed it. 25 years ago the W was the red headed step child in the Ford world, after the 5.0 aftermarket went nuts in the late 80s and early 90s, the W got to go along for the ride because quite a few parts interchange or fit with relative ease between the 302 and 351. When the 5.0 crowd realized that the 351 would nearly bolt into their Fox bodied cars, it became the engine of choice for strokers and small block builds due to the support it finally got near the end of its production run.
Now we have people who dont consider a Cleveland to be worth much or way too expensive because aftermarket heads are considerably more pricey than your typical Windsor head. The thing is they really dont need them for most builds where the W does. Sure the C has 60s technology, but that still works quite well if built right. Stroker kits, bearings, cams, intakes, distributors, and headers are all similarly priced for both W and C engines, unless you get the very cheap stuff that has no place in a performance build.
They are both very good engines with benefits and limitations, and building either one is worth the effort. So it comes down to what you have already, and what you can get if you dont have either one. If starting from scratch, it will depend on which one you find in better shape for less money, unless you are trying to do something within class rules or have a preference.
I am not against the Windsor, not in any way shape or form, but to ignore the potential in the Cleveland and tout the supposed superiority of the Windsor, well that isnt me. They are both capable, and they both fit in quite a few cars relatively easily. If your car has a Cleveland, and you would have to go out and buy a Windsor, and you are on a budget, it would be silly to just dump an engine that will make similar power without a bunch of aftermarket parts thrown at it.
As for Cleveland heads, they are a decent enough head for stock, even the 2V flows much better than any stock W head, and better than some aftermarket heads. Of course some aftermarket W heads flow better, but not all of them. The 4V heads have even fewer aftermarket W heads that flow better, and if need be, you can modify the ports in the 4V heads by making them smaller, and thus improving velocity. 4V heads have a dead spot in the lower part of the port, it doesnt affect a street engine so much but if you want every last bit of power from them in a race application, the popular trick is filling them in and using a special plate in the exhaust.
You wont hear of any W heads needing to be made smaller, the W has more aftermarket stuff because it needed it. 25 years ago the W was the red headed step child in the Ford world, after the 5.0 aftermarket went nuts in the late 80s and early 90s, the W got to go along for the ride because quite a few parts interchange or fit with relative ease between the 302 and 351. When the 5.0 crowd realized that the 351 would nearly bolt into their Fox bodied cars, it became the engine of choice for strokers and small block builds due to the support it finally got near the end of its production run.
Now we have people who dont consider a Cleveland to be worth much or way too expensive because aftermarket heads are considerably more pricey than your typical Windsor head. The thing is they really dont need them for most builds where the W does. Sure the C has 60s technology, but that still works quite well if built right. Stroker kits, bearings, cams, intakes, distributors, and headers are all similarly priced for both W and C engines, unless you get the very cheap stuff that has no place in a performance build.
They are both very good engines with benefits and limitations, and building either one is worth the effort. So it comes down to what you have already, and what you can get if you dont have either one. If starting from scratch, it will depend on which one you find in better shape for less money, unless you are trying to do something within class rules or have a preference.
I am not against the Windsor, not in any way shape or form, but to ignore the potential in the Cleveland and tout the supposed superiority of the Windsor, well that isnt me. They are both capable, and they both fit in quite a few cars relatively easily. If your car has a Cleveland, and you would have to go out and buy a Windsor, and you are on a budget, it would be silly to just dump an engine that will make similar power without a bunch of aftermarket parts thrown at it.
10-16-2009, 07:35 PM
#12
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Marquette Mi
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Just remembered one thing about the 351W, due to the taller deck the carb is also a bit higher, and that can cause some interference issues with some cars. The 66 Mustang we dropped a Windsor in back in 86 didnt need a scoop or anything, but it also had a stock intake. Pretty much a bolt in deal.
10-17-2009, 03:48 PM
#14
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Washington
Posts: 723
Thumpin is correct on the headers but you won't need a different bellhousing for the Cleveland. I have done several and used the same transmission as the 302's we took out without any problems. Make SURE you get a Cleveland and not a 351M, though. They LOOK indentical but the M does use a different transmission with the big block bellhousing and they have garbage heads. If you are looking at the new FPP 351 Boss block, you could also do a stroker kit it that for around the same money as a 302 stroker but you would get a lot more cubic inches and a lot more torque and horsepower. A friend of mine just did a 393 stroker and it made 590 horsepower on the dyno and didn't cost him anymore to build than a 347 stroker would have. Of course, you could always use the W block, C heads, and the required custom pistons and Edelbrock or very rare B&A intake and build yourself a Clevor motor. I have built several of these also and they make AWESOME power.
10-17-2009, 04:46 PM
#15
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It depends, I have two bellhousings for the C4, both physically bolt to the 289,302,and both 351s but the inside diameter around the flexplate is smaller on one of them, otherwise identical. Dont worry, if the flex plate fits inside the trans, its the right one. You cant screw it up.
10-18-2009, 02:14 AM
#16
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Utah
Posts: 67
So Hiboost, what heads, cam, etc. did your friend use? This is where I am stumped. There is a ton of info out there for a 302 stroker build, but I don't see where the info is for a 351 stroker. Probably just need to do some research, but there seems to be alot of knowledge in this forum so I am asking here. I don't have to do the build on the cheap, but I don't want to throw money away either. It seems like if you want to produce 500+ hp and you want the engine to last a long time it would be smart to invest in a new block like the FRP Boss 351. I don't plan to race this car and it isn't a daily driver. It's a post midlife crisis! Not really, I've wanted to build a very cool car all of my life and now I can. So without breaking the bank but realizing a good engine with 500+ hp is going to cost some money more than a stock rebuild; what are the components I should use. I would love to hear some suggestions on the exact components you guys would use to do a 351 stroker build.
10-18-2009, 11:16 AM
#19
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Washington
Posts: 723
So Hiboost, what heads, cam, etc. did your friend use? This is where I am stumped. There is a ton of info out there for a 302 stroker build, but I don't see where the info is for a 351 stroker. Probably just need to do some research, but there seems to be alot of knowledge in this forum so I am asking here. I don't have to do the build on the cheap, but I don't want to throw money away either. It seems like if you want to produce 500+ hp and you want the engine to last a long time it would be smart to invest in a new block like the FRP Boss 351. I don't plan to race this car and it isn't a daily driver. It's a post midlife crisis! Not really, I've wanted to build a very cool car all of my life and now I can. So without breaking the bank but realizing a good engine with 500+ hp is going to cost some money more than a stock rebuild; what are the components I should use. I would love to hear some suggestions on the exact components you guys would use to do a 351 stroker build.
10-18-2009, 02:36 PM
#20
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Marquette Mi
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jc how much power do you actually want? Just more than 500? What are your wants as far as how it drives? A 500hp NA 408 with pump gas compression is going to be a bit wild, yeah you can street drive it but engines like that have 'quirks' that take a little getting used to. I happen to like they way they drive, they arent civil by any means. They do suck in heavy traffic that isnt moving, just so you know.
I would go with a solid roller and some rather large AFR heads, H beam rods would be my choice as well. It could be done with a stock block, but the aftermarket blocks wont split down the middle. If you can swing the aftermarket block then by all means do it, you can always make more power with it later with compression or forced induction.
If it were mine I would go with a cam and heads that makes the most torque under 6000 rpm with a nice flat curve to it. The Engine Masters Challenge has had some really stellar combinations, and some of the Windsors they have done would make excellent street engines. Peak HP is nice, but having a car that has power everywhere is where its at for a driver. By maximizing the torque you will then be able to run a taller gear in the mid to low 3s, that will save wear and fuel, even though economy is not the main focus.
Unless you had a 390 in your car before it will only have one torque box, adding one to the passenger side would be more than a good idea, consider it mandatory. So would stiffening the car with subframe connectors and an 8 or 10 point cage. If its mainly a street ride you could go with the low door bars, they make life much easier. After that its a matter of keeping everything behind the flywheel from breaking. Why not do it right if you want that much power?
So what exactly do you want from it? Fun cruiser with silly power available, or more of a street strip ride?
I would go with a solid roller and some rather large AFR heads, H beam rods would be my choice as well. It could be done with a stock block, but the aftermarket blocks wont split down the middle. If you can swing the aftermarket block then by all means do it, you can always make more power with it later with compression or forced induction.
If it were mine I would go with a cam and heads that makes the most torque under 6000 rpm with a nice flat curve to it. The Engine Masters Challenge has had some really stellar combinations, and some of the Windsors they have done would make excellent street engines. Peak HP is nice, but having a car that has power everywhere is where its at for a driver. By maximizing the torque you will then be able to run a taller gear in the mid to low 3s, that will save wear and fuel, even though economy is not the main focus.
Unless you had a 390 in your car before it will only have one torque box, adding one to the passenger side would be more than a good idea, consider it mandatory. So would stiffening the car with subframe connectors and an 8 or 10 point cage. If its mainly a street ride you could go with the low door bars, they make life much easier. After that its a matter of keeping everything behind the flywheel from breaking. Why not do it right if you want that much power?
So what exactly do you want from it? Fun cruiser with silly power available, or more of a street strip ride?