The Windsor is a big small block with small block heads and a junk intake (pre EFI). the Cleveland is a small big block with poor cylinder and water passage location in the block and is prone to hot spots. The windsor has only one stock head design and it has inline valves. The Cleveland has 2v, 4v, and the "legendary" aussie heads which were all canted design i believe. Both have good bottom ends and the windsor is a good design for a stroker and a cleveland is good for a 4 bolt main setup. The Cleveland does have a poor oiling system and In My Opinion is NOT the superior design. The Windsor is supperior in all cases except for the main caps(which are still good) poor intake design and not as racy head design...If that helps anyone, that means i didnt waste 5 minutes of my life.

 

5 minutes? It took you more time to type that than 5 minutes. I guess I spend an average of 2 hours on here each day just to keep you guys straight. We have the best guys in the world on here who really know their stuff about these old dinosaurs.

 

are you saying i know what i'm talking about?

 

try this link, You can't beat that price. the 347 I plan to built will cost more just for the parts and I aready have the block. Not to mention they build quality engines.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/418-F...temZ8017351527

 

unless hes planning on a serious track only engine, the 4v heads are WAAAAYY too big to make power on the street. but a windsor (be it 302 or 351) is much better due to the variety and easy availability of superior heads, not to mention weight difference. windsor style crate motors are so cheap and plentiful youd be dumb to use a cleveland. yes a cleveland can be made to run, yes the oiling issue can be dealt with, but after all that work you still have a HEAVY engine with iron heads and a lot of time/work/money invested.

 

A clevor does not have oiling issues, a clevor is a windsor block with cleveland heads. it was the hot setup before the influx of aftermarket windsor heads. As for the 4V heads, they work fine on the street when you use port stuffers, the best small block head ever produced by ford was the 4V cleveland head, period. Clevleand blocks have serious issues with oiling, and strength, they are notoriously thin and have horrible core shift. The only way to make a cleveland live at high rpm is to bush all 16 lifter bores and a few other tricks. We used to run clevelands to 9500rpm and they lived for awhile. Windsor block is far superior to the cleveland.

 

Decurion is right. 4v heads are better left for serious performance use. The scarcity is a problem too.

What some are misguided on is weight and size.

Windsors are small blocks.
Clevelands are small blocks.
There are a few pounds difference in weight, not like a hundred or even fifty. Roughly the same weight.
The heads from either can be physically bolted to the other with no mods. Some changes to the water jackets need adressed before you can run them on either block.


Stock Cleveland heads flow MUCH better than stock windsor heads. Especially 4V heads.
Aftermarket Windsor heads flow prety well.
2V heads flow enough air to feed a 450hp engine rather easily

The main reason the Windsor is more promenent in the aftermarket is availability. The W was made from 1969 untill the 90s, the Cleveland was only made in the USA from 1970-1974. There are more Windsor blocks around to build on. Also they fit where a 302/5.0L was and few changes are needed for the swap. A cleveland can only use the same trans as a 302 or 351W.

The Cleveland is a good engine. The Cleveland aftermarket and following is HUGE in Austrailia where it was in production for much longer. As far as airflow there isnt another small block capable of what those heads flow in stock form.

All Clevelands, BOSS 302, and 351/400M engines are canted valve designs. All use the same basic head design.
2V Ports are considerable smaller than 4V ports, but either makes a great head. It just depends on what you have available.

Clevors came about because of two things. Oiling issues with Clevelands and to a greater extent the massive availability of the Windsor block. Since even the 2V 351M head flows much better than any stock W based head, before the proliferation of aftermarket heads for the 5.0L and 351W an easy way to get more airflow with a W was with a set of M heads. Cheap easy engine with easy to find parts is where that came from. The intake was the ony part that was difficult to find, as the W has a taller deck height than does a Cleveland so you cant use any production intake.

Deck height is simply the distance from the crankshaft centerline to the top of the block. its longer in the W and the W uses a longer rod to make up the difference. Its also the same dimension that makes for the longer stroke available to get 351ci from a block that was originally a 260/289/302. Make it taller to fit more stroke into it.

Windsors used a few different head castings, but the differences were minor compared to the difference in 2V and 4V Cleveland heads. The size difference is massive between Cleveland 2V and 4V heads ports, most 4V heads had smaller chambers for increased compression, the 72 and later had slightly bigger chambers to lower compression. Porte velocity is very important to an engine, 4V heads make power high in the RPM range and benefit from actually making the port smaller to increase flow and velocity.

Austrailian heads combine the 2V port with the 70-71 small chamber for higher compression and more velocity. They had better gas down under and fewer emissions restrictions than we in the USA had back then. 4V heads are somewhat scarce compared to Windsor and 351/400Modified heads, and in stock form are somewhat soggy on the bottom. But if you find a set, dont throw them away, they make great power with the right cam intake and headers.

2V heads are more common and will still make serious power, so you dont need to throw them away or wish you had 4V heads. Both are decent and will make considerably more power than any stock W head. That isnt to say you cant make power with a W.

351/400 M is also not a big block. Its a tall deck Cleveland style engine, it has larger main bearings, longer rods, and a 429/460 size bellhousing bolt pattern. Still even though its taller and has the large bolt pattern its still a small block. They can be made to run and 400s make great truck engines. A custom intake will allow you to put on a set of 4V heads, but you need light pistons and rods to really get the benefit from them through RPM.

Wether the W or C is better depends on application. If you have a 62-68 Falcon, Fairlane, Comet, or Mustang then a Cleveland is a tight fit due to the slightly larger width and HUGE headers. In that case a W is your best bet for more than 351ci. After 1969 your choices arent limited by size or headers so you run what you can find in your price range.

If you want a crate engine the W is for you. If you have an old 72 Mustang Grande with a 2V Cleveland in it, then that motor is just fine with some work.

Maybe its time to tear down the Windosr outside and show the differences and similarities of the small block Fords. I have at least one of each in the shop so its not difficult to do.

 

short winsor history a 289 is a maxed out 260, a 302 is a beefed up 289 and the 351W is a raised deck and beefed up rotating assembly 302

 

Using intake spacers you can use any windsor intake on cleveland heads you want.

 

thumpin,
ive got all kinds of windsor parts in my garage. i can take pics of all my crap to save you some work if you decide to do the comparison thing. it seems like a good idea to me.