I'm looking at a Trade Express car magazine right now, and one of the mustangs has a rebuilt 351 clevland with 40K miles. My question is how does a clevland compare to a 289 V8, the car is a 1968 coupe.

 

Most of us think of the 351 Cleveland as the top of the line small block Classic Ford engine to put in our classics. There are some problems with oiling problems, and parts are hard to find as opposed to the 351 Windsor. The main thing that sets the Cleveland apart from the other windsor engines are the heads.

 

Thanks, the car ad reads:

1968 FORD MUSTANG Coupe- Black, 40K miles on a rebuilt 351
Clevland eng, owner for 20 years, runs strong, $5500 obo

Is that a good price? The picture looks fine, but he doesnt say anything about the interior

 

Mo power!! You need to see if it is a 2V or a 4V, I understand that makes a lot of difference as far as drivability, with the 2V getting the nod in regard to drivability.

The 351 is essentially an entirly different motor from the 289 right down to the block. I would think a Clecveland would be cool.

The maindifference (as far as power production) in the engine is the heads, they are broader than289/302/WINDSOR heads and they have canted (or angled) valve for more efficient entry and exit of gases into and out of the engine. The 4V engine has huge intake and exhaust ports, so big in fact that they are problematic for a "daily driver". I have heard that the 2V headsmake for a good all arround car.

BTW, the price of the car looks very good, on the surface anyway!!

 

I would need it for a daily driver, so i'd need a 2V? Can you explain to me more what the difference between 2v and 4v is? Is 2V just smaller?

 

The difference is the heads, intake, and carburator. Ford used to call an engine with, and built for, a 2 barrel carburator a 2V, and an engine with, and built for,a 4 barrel carb a 4V. (V is for venturi).

The 4V heads have huge ports, too big for efficient and pleasurable daily street use, at least this is what I have heard from everybody!
The problem with the 4Vs is that due to the overly large ports, the engine needs to run at a high RPM constantly or it is a dog.

As a side note if you get a car with a 2V, it is very common (and advisable I think) to change the intake and carb to a 4 barrel, unless you have a rare or "nice" stock Mustang, but if it were me I would put the 4 barrel carb on anyway! but thats me.

For the price of the car, I would consider the buy even if it had 4V heads, you could always change them to 2V or aftermarket anyway!

 

My only problem once again, is that I need a job first. I think I'm going to try for my brothers first job, at Newbury Park Bike Shop.

 

Ok, I'm prolly gonna get jumped on for this, but here goes. Cleveland heads really SUCK. PERIOD. Unless you use 4v heads in a race only application, or put CHI or some other aftermarket MODERN Cleveland head on, you'll get crappy power AND crappy drivability. Consider this....AFR 165's, a rather common performance aftermarket aluminum head for 302's and mild 351Ws. They have 165cc intake ports and 69cc exhaust ports with the standard inline valve configuration with 1.90 and 1.60 valves. 351C heads whether 2v or 4v have bigger ports(if someone knows the size then I'd like to know, I think the 4v heads are larger than 230cc)and canted valves that are like 2.03+ 1.65+. Afr 165's which are a mild head, outflow Cleveland heads. They outlow 2v heads AND 4v heads. On the 2v heads they outlofw them all the way around up to .600+ lift. When you compare them to 4v heads, 4v heads flow a bit better at .600 lift on the intake side, but AFR 165's flow better at .500 lift, substantially better at .400 lift and blow the doors off a 2v or 4v head under .400 lift. Since your engine will spend more time at .200 .300 and .400 lift than it will at .500 or .600 overall flow across diferent lifts is more important than peak lift flow. And even at peak, the Cleveland flows more on the intake side, but the 165 flows more on the exhaust side.That means that even the smallest AFR head, the 165, will outflow any stock Cleveland head, but with WAAAYYYY smaller ports, which means MUCH better induction velocity, which means way better drivability and more power all the way around from substantially increased volumetric efficiency(there's that word again). In order to get a Cleveland head to compete with even a small head like an AFR 165 or a TFS TW or an Eddy Performer for power,you'd need to modify it to flow more, but that would mean bigger ports and less velocity and crappier streetability, which relegates 4v Cleveland heads to greater than .600 lift cam race cars. You COULD get CHI heads, since it's basically a modern reworked Cleveland head, then you'd have something that's streetable and makes excellent power(better than most similarly sized windsor family aftermarket heads). This isn't even talking about something like AFR 185's on a 351W or Canfield 192's or pick any other similar head. Everyone around here jumps so hard on the "it's a Cleveland" bandwagon without even knowing what the deal is. Yes, Clevelands HAD awsome heads, back in 1970 when heads sucked. But even mild 302 performance heads eclipsed the best Cleveland head more than 10 years ago. If you want a Cleveland to have one, or if you had an original Cleveland car, hey, awsome. Factory 351c's are rare birds indeed, and worth keeping as a C. But if you want a Mustang for daily driving AND want power, you're going to have to go with a Windsor or do a 351C and use a better head, such as CHI's Cleveland heads. 351C heads were great for performance 30 years ago, but by todays standards they really don't cut it for power, drivability or mileage. Why build a 351C when you can build a 302 for the same money that gets better mileage, better throttle response, just as much if not more power and you can find parts for it very easily. Anyway, here's some flowcharts if you're interested in looking. http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm

 

Well thanks a ton dude, that must have taken you forever to write. I don't know any other way, so unless someone is able to come up with something better that was very helpful. I wasnt planning on getting the engine though, It's already in the car im looking at.

 

If you get the car that has a 351C then you might as well build it up and use these heads or something similar http://www.chiheads.com/They have what they call "3v" 185 heads, that are a very streetable and flow better than stock 4v heads. They'll work great on adaily driver351. Windsor family engines tend to be better because there is way more aftermarket support from heads to internals to accessories, they're just as reliable as a Cleveland family engine, but you can build more power with better drivability and mileage. Clevelands have the cool factor because they're different, but if you're truely concerned about making good power in a driver, you'll be better off with a windsor family engine than a Cleveland, at least you can find parts for it