maxing out performance
5th Gear Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,100
From: Texas Hill Country
RE: maxing out performance
Twothings.
One Holleys are not finicky, but are ultra customizable. They do not detune once you dial it in, but they do have a bunch of things that you can change/tweak which gives them a bad name from people who do not know what they are doing. Lets put it this way. Edelbrocks are great for people who do not like to tune cars. Holleys are great for perfectionists.
Two, Edelbrock Air Gap intakes are dual plane intakes with long runners like a ram tunnel or big single plane. The dual plane gives good streetability and good low end power. The "air gap" gives you a cooler charge of air which helps in making power. The long runners give it nice upper end power. It is almost like a cross between a Victor single plane and a performer dual plane. I really like it and they look cool. The only downside is they are tall, so they may or may not fit under your stock hood with stock engine mounts. Mine did, but with only 1/4 of clearance between the aircleaner and the hood scoop. The tight clearance turned out good because I made the scoop functional and put in a K&N XStream filter which gives mekindofa ram air affect to the car.
One Holleys are not finicky, but are ultra customizable. They do not detune once you dial it in, but they do have a bunch of things that you can change/tweak which gives them a bad name from people who do not know what they are doing. Lets put it this way. Edelbrocks are great for people who do not like to tune cars. Holleys are great for perfectionists.
Two, Edelbrock Air Gap intakes are dual plane intakes with long runners like a ram tunnel or big single plane. The dual plane gives good streetability and good low end power. The "air gap" gives you a cooler charge of air which helps in making power. The long runners give it nice upper end power. It is almost like a cross between a Victor single plane and a performer dual plane. I really like it and they look cool. The only downside is they are tall, so they may or may not fit under your stock hood with stock engine mounts. Mine did, but with only 1/4 of clearance between the aircleaner and the hood scoop. The tight clearance turned out good because I made the scoop functional and put in a K&N XStream filter which gives mekindofa ram air affect to the car.
Thread Starter
1st Gear Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 111
From:
RE: maxing out performance
yeah sorry, wasn't trying to imply that they were poor carbs at all, just that they're not what I'd call a beginner's carb, unless you know what you are doing they are difficult to get tuned properly...the edelbrocks from what I understand are mostly plug and play.
3rd Gear Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 971
From: Apison, TN
RE: maxing out performance
ORIGINAL: snafu7x7
Wow, what a ton of knowledge to digest, you guys have given me a lot to think about.
To summarize what I've learned may help me:
1. New heads and cam will make a huge difference, followed shortly by the intake and carb.
2. Edelbrock heads are good and AFR's suck...or no wait AFRs rock and Edelbrock suck, no wait...lol...sounds like the never-ending debate...I also heard JBA and Hedman thrown around for good measure -lol
3. From what I've read on here and other forums it seems like the best approach is to pick and choose components from different manufacturers that will work well together rather than trying to get a do-it-all kit. I'm fine with spending a little more to get the perfect configuration
4. Universally everyone loves the COMP cams, but I think you might have the part number wrong, the xe284h, and xe294h are for Chevys. Here are the cams they offer for my 351w: http://www.compperformancegroupstore...ry_Code=WDSCAM
5. Everyone also seems to universally laud the Edelbrock intake so that's another nice consensus builder. Can someone explain to me what an "air gap" intake is though I am not familiar with them and how they might differ.
6. Carb-wise it seems much like the Edelbrock-AFR debate with folks lining up on the Edelbrock or Holley sides. From what I can determine they both make excellent carbs with the Edelbrock's being more "set and forget" and the Holley more finicky and in need of frequent adjustment. Since I want to avoid pulling my hair out, I might take the easier option unless someone has a good reason not to. Also I've heard that Holley's can be a pain to start in cold weather...my current stock carb is like that (and I live in FL) and it drives me crazy. I wish it had a manual choke on it because when its choked it starts immediately but the auto choke doesn't do a very good job in the cold. What kind of max RPM should I be looking at with this engine? to I found a nifty little CFM calculator here: http://www.4secondsflat.com/Carb_CFM_Calculator.html
7. The point about buying quality oil is well taken, no point in dropping hundreds of dollars into all these upgrades only to cheap out on something that important.
thanks again for all the advice, I plan to start this project in a month or two so I'm trying to get all my research done up front.
Wow, what a ton of knowledge to digest, you guys have given me a lot to think about.
To summarize what I've learned may help me:
1. New heads and cam will make a huge difference, followed shortly by the intake and carb.
2. Edelbrock heads are good and AFR's suck...or no wait AFRs rock and Edelbrock suck, no wait...lol...sounds like the never-ending debate...I also heard JBA and Hedman thrown around for good measure -lol
3. From what I've read on here and other forums it seems like the best approach is to pick and choose components from different manufacturers that will work well together rather than trying to get a do-it-all kit. I'm fine with spending a little more to get the perfect configuration
4. Universally everyone loves the COMP cams, but I think you might have the part number wrong, the xe284h, and xe294h are for Chevys. Here are the cams they offer for my 351w: http://www.compperformancegroupstore...ry_Code=WDSCAM
5. Everyone also seems to universally laud the Edelbrock intake so that's another nice consensus builder. Can someone explain to me what an "air gap" intake is though I am not familiar with them and how they might differ.
6. Carb-wise it seems much like the Edelbrock-AFR debate with folks lining up on the Edelbrock or Holley sides. From what I can determine they both make excellent carbs with the Edelbrock's being more "set and forget" and the Holley more finicky and in need of frequent adjustment. Since I want to avoid pulling my hair out, I might take the easier option unless someone has a good reason not to. Also I've heard that Holley's can be a pain to start in cold weather...my current stock carb is like that (and I live in FL) and it drives me crazy. I wish it had a manual choke on it because when its choked it starts immediately but the auto choke doesn't do a very good job in the cold. What kind of max RPM should I be looking at with this engine? to I found a nifty little CFM calculator here: http://www.4secondsflat.com/Carb_CFM_Calculator.html
7. The point about buying quality oil is well taken, no point in dropping hundreds of dollars into all these upgrades only to cheap out on something that important.
thanks again for all the advice, I plan to start this project in a month or two so I'm trying to get all my research done up front.
Thread Starter
1st Gear Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 111
From:
RE: maxing out performance
ORIGINAL: tyler72
The numbers I listed are grind numbers, not part numbers. They make these cams for both Ford and Chevy engines, as well as others too. The parts numbers are: 35-250-4 for the xe284h and 35-254-4 for the xe294h. And yes, these are the cam only kits for the 351W.
The numbers I listed are grind numbers, not part numbers. They make these cams for both Ford and Chevy engines, as well as others too. The parts numbers are: 35-250-4 for the xe284h and 35-254-4 for the xe294h. And yes, these are the cam only kits for the 351W.
I understand at a basic level what a cam does but i'm having trouble visualizing physically how bigger means better for cams? Can someone explain? thanx
6th Gear Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,635
From: state of confusion
RE: maxing out performance
Crudely, "bigger" means you open the valves some combination of earlier, faster, wider, and then hold them open longer and let them drop back towardtheir seats a little faster. The idea is to keep the edge of the valve further off the valve seat for a longer period of time, so that more air and fuel can be drawn in and the burnt gases more completely let out in the small time spans available. At 6000 rpm, your valves go from shut to fully open and back to shut in less than 0.004 seconds, so there really isn´t a whole lot of time in which to get all that gas flow done.
Physically, a "bigger" cam lobe tends to look a little "taller" and the "nose" (area where maximum valve lift is created) is more rounded/less pointy.
Norm
Physically, a "bigger" cam lobe tends to look a little "taller" and the "nose" (area where maximum valve lift is created) is more rounded/less pointy.
Norm
Thread Starter
1st Gear Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 111
From:
RE: maxing out performance
OK I finely managed to find the full spec sheet on my engine (knew I had it filed somewhere just couldn't find it).
The engine was rebuilt before I bought it so I didn't know the detail until I was able to study this sheet. But beyond some of the more obvious stuff this is mostly Greek to me so I'll need a little help interpreting it.
Given the below, please give me your feedback on how you best to proceed in tweaking this engine out for high performance (I don't want a track car, rather I want a DD that will go like a bat out of hell when I step on it). Many of you have already given good advice on how to proceed so just take this as supplemental info and comment as appropriate as to what I should do, thx
Block: 351w 2V, bored to 4.030
Crank: Cast Stock, 3.5 stroke, journal diameters: main: 2.990, rod: 2.301, endplay: .008, Bearing (Speed Pro CL-77) clearance: main: .0015 rod: .002
Rods: Stock forged, stock length, side c1: .018 -.019
Pistons: Speed Pro .030, Compression 9-1-1, Piston to bore clearance .0015 each, Ring end gap: top .017, 2ed: .019, oil: .024
Cam: Stock Speed Pro: Lash Ex: O-Hyd Int: O-Hyd, Intake: .425 Exhaust: .450, CL: 110 deg, Lift Duration: Int: 256 deg, Ex: 270 deg
Heads: C90E, Valve Dia: Int: 1.840, Ex: 1.540 Stem Dia: Int: 343 Ex: 342, Seat Angle: Int: 45 deg, Ext: 45 deg, Chamber CC: 62cc
Head Surface: resurface, Valve Guides: 11/32 new
Valve Seals: Stock umbrella, Rocker Arms: Stock Rail Type
Tourque Specs:
Step 1: 45, Step 2: 85, Step 3: 100, Rod Bolts: 45
Cam bolts, thrust plate: 16, eccentric: 40, flywheel: 75, damper: 125
Cyl heads: Step 1: 45, Step 2: 85, Step 3: 100, Rod Bolts: 45, Rocker Arms: 15
Intake Manifold: 25, Exhaust Manifold: 25, Oil Pan: 12, Valve Cover: 12, Water Pump: 18, Fuel Pump: 25, Oil Pump: 35, Oil Pickup: 25, Spark Plug: 15
thanx
The engine was rebuilt before I bought it so I didn't know the detail until I was able to study this sheet. But beyond some of the more obvious stuff this is mostly Greek to me so I'll need a little help interpreting it.
Given the below, please give me your feedback on how you best to proceed in tweaking this engine out for high performance (I don't want a track car, rather I want a DD that will go like a bat out of hell when I step on it). Many of you have already given good advice on how to proceed so just take this as supplemental info and comment as appropriate as to what I should do, thx
Block: 351w 2V, bored to 4.030
Crank: Cast Stock, 3.5 stroke, journal diameters: main: 2.990, rod: 2.301, endplay: .008, Bearing (Speed Pro CL-77) clearance: main: .0015 rod: .002
Rods: Stock forged, stock length, side c1: .018 -.019
Pistons: Speed Pro .030, Compression 9-1-1, Piston to bore clearance .0015 each, Ring end gap: top .017, 2ed: .019, oil: .024
Cam: Stock Speed Pro: Lash Ex: O-Hyd Int: O-Hyd, Intake: .425 Exhaust: .450, CL: 110 deg, Lift Duration: Int: 256 deg, Ex: 270 deg
Heads: C90E, Valve Dia: Int: 1.840, Ex: 1.540 Stem Dia: Int: 343 Ex: 342, Seat Angle: Int: 45 deg, Ext: 45 deg, Chamber CC: 62cc
Head Surface: resurface, Valve Guides: 11/32 new
Valve Seals: Stock umbrella, Rocker Arms: Stock Rail Type
Tourque Specs:
Step 1: 45, Step 2: 85, Step 3: 100, Rod Bolts: 45
Cam bolts, thrust plate: 16, eccentric: 40, flywheel: 75, damper: 125
Cyl heads: Step 1: 45, Step 2: 85, Step 3: 100, Rod Bolts: 45, Rocker Arms: 15
Intake Manifold: 25, Exhaust Manifold: 25, Oil Pan: 12, Valve Cover: 12, Water Pump: 18, Fuel Pump: 25, Oil Pump: 35, Oil Pickup: 25, Spark Plug: 15
thanx
6th Gear Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,635
From: state of confusion
RE: maxing out performance
Then you want a build that emphasizes torque rather than big HP numbers. Choose your cam, intake, and carbaccordingly. A little more cam than what´s on that list, but not a lot bigger at least duration-wise, and I´d choose a hydraulic roller for a number of reasons. Dual plane intake with a relatively small CFM carb, maybe a 650. Cost no object - multiport EFI, aluminum heads, a point or so more compression ratio with the same sort of cam.
Those specs look like a stock rebuild with absolutely nothing special about it. And some information appears to be missing -I´m guessing cast pistons, don´t know anything about the deck height (for making a more accurate estimate of compression ratio than what was printed on the sales slip for the pistons), and there are better valve seals than umbrellas available.
Norm
Those specs look like a stock rebuild with absolutely nothing special about it. And some information appears to be missing -I´m guessing cast pistons, don´t know anything about the deck height (for making a more accurate estimate of compression ratio than what was printed on the sales slip for the pistons), and there are better valve seals than umbrellas available.
Norm
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