trans issues; please help!
07-24-2009, 09:11 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Arizona
Posts: 25
trans issues; please help!
Little background: car is a 65 with a 305 mated to a C6. The trans as far as I know the trans is out of a late model van. The motor is something about 70-73. The problem is the car wont move. Shift in to reverse, neutral drive, 3, 2, 1 and nothing. I checked trans fluid (car running) and there was nothing. Put a quart and a half in and its where it should be on the dip stick. Still nothing. Got it to jump while in drive twice but other than that it goes no where. Doesnt even act like its shifting in to gear. My bf's dad thinks the direct clutches arent engaging and it could be a lip seal or something. I need to get the car moving ASAP, if anyones got experience with what it is please let me know. Thanks!
(Sorry for the long read
)
(Sorry for the long read
)
07-24-2009, 09:20 PM
#2
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: California
Posts: 441
Was it drivable at one point? If the clutches were gone, you would still feel the band engage. You sure its a C-6 and not a FMX? In all gears, the only thing that would cause it NOT to move is the front pump! If the trans was ust put in and they did not engage the pump, it has to clip in 3 times, the input, the stator and then the pump.
07-24-2009, 10:27 PM
#3
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AR
Posts: 5,469
If it was really low on fluid, it may take more fluid to fill the converter and everything else. An Auto trans will take lots of fluid if empty..... Several quarts.
I think you should add a few more quarts and try to move the car again,,, but gently,, don't want to smoke the clutches.
What happens when an auto gets empty, the pump looses it's prime, and gravity pulls the fluid out of all the lines, passages, valve body, and TORQUE CONVERTER.
My guess is that you added the fluid, you checked it while the car was runnig as you should have, the stick said everything was good. You tried to move the car and the pump sucked up the quart and a half, the car tried to move for an instant untill the pump started sucking air. NOT ENOUGH FLUID.
Put more fluid in, if this ain't your problem overfilling wont matter because you will need a rebuild on your tranny anyway.
I am all but POSITIVE that if you drop 4 to 6 quarts in there it will pick up the fluid (the pump will prime) and the car WILL move, and then it will want MORE fluid.
My guess is that the car has been sitting for some time and the fluid leaked out over months or years????
If not, you have a SERIOUS leakage or tranny issue...
<<EDIT... I have to mention that your tranny is probably a C-4, c-4s were the "stock" tranny for 65, and it may be that someone might have installed a C-6, I think it would probably require floorboard modification, not something many people would do to shoe horn a C-6 in!!
And you engine is probably a 302, instead of a 305, although I think a .030 over 302 is a 306,,,, close!!>>
I think you should add a few more quarts and try to move the car again,,, but gently,, don't want to smoke the clutches.
What happens when an auto gets empty, the pump looses it's prime, and gravity pulls the fluid out of all the lines, passages, valve body, and TORQUE CONVERTER.
My guess is that you added the fluid, you checked it while the car was runnig as you should have, the stick said everything was good. You tried to move the car and the pump sucked up the quart and a half, the car tried to move for an instant untill the pump started sucking air. NOT ENOUGH FLUID.
Put more fluid in, if this ain't your problem overfilling wont matter because you will need a rebuild on your tranny anyway.
I am all but POSITIVE that if you drop 4 to 6 quarts in there it will pick up the fluid (the pump will prime) and the car WILL move, and then it will want MORE fluid.
My guess is that the car has been sitting for some time and the fluid leaked out over months or years????
If not, you have a SERIOUS leakage or tranny issue...
<<EDIT... I have to mention that your tranny is probably a C-4, c-4s were the "stock" tranny for 65, and it may be that someone might have installed a C-6, I think it would probably require floorboard modification, not something many people would do to shoe horn a C-6 in!!
And you engine is probably a 302, instead of a 305, although I think a .030 over 302 is a 306,,,, close!!>>
Last edited by JMD; 07-24-2009 at 10:34 PM.
07-24-2009, 11:17 PM
#4
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: California
Posts: 441
Loosing fluid back into the trans while sitting is "drain-back". It's caused by the check ball in the front pump being stuck. 70-73 vans had C-6's, and FMX's. The also had the flaircase C-4 which has the dipstick in the pan. The C-6 is a one piece case and the FMX has an aluminum bellhousing with a cast case and the step case C-4 (cars) had the dipstick in the case and and the truck/van C-4 was a flaircase (looks like a one piece but is two) with the dipstick in the pan.
07-25-2009, 10:41 AM
#5
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,839
A C-6 won't fit on a small block and I'm not sure what you mean by a 305? Check your shift linkage and make sure it is working properly. Many mixed components result in poor linkage adjustments. You may think it is in gear, but not really and you said sometimes it jumps.
07-25-2009, 11:09 AM
#6
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Marquette Mi
Posts: 3,566
Actually there are C6s that fit small blocks, they came behind Clevelands, and they will bolt to a 289/302 no problem. I have four of them laying around somewhere. I dont use them because a C4 is lighter and easier to build, and I have more of them laying around than C6.
With the fins on top it would be a tight fit in a 65 though, I am guessing its a C4 or derivative (C3/C5) and it sounds like front pump or not enough fluid.
To fill an automatic transmission, you put four quarts in, then start the car and let it idle in PARK. Then you add four more quarts, let it sit for a minute and check the level. Add half quarts until it shows on the dipstick, then pints until its in the operating range. If it is even 1 quart low it might not move but you will burn clutches. NEVER ever under any circumstances rev the engine way up in an attempt to get the car to move while filling the trans. The first time you put it in gear should be at idle, and you let it engage fully before doing anything. I usually put it in reverse first to make sure that works. Then after reverse works I try low 1, after that works I go for a short trip to see if the trans shifts all the while keeping RPM under 3000.
If the front pump is broken, then it isnt going anywhere no matter how much fluid you put in it. Its a common novice mistake to break the front pump when bolting the trans to the engine. You support the converter by the pilot, thats the big round thing in the middle, and turn it while adding some mild pressure and rocking the converter around a bit. If it doesnt engage the front pump it will break the gear, then you have to pull it all apart again and change the pump.
With the fins on top it would be a tight fit in a 65 though, I am guessing its a C4 or derivative (C3/C5) and it sounds like front pump or not enough fluid.
To fill an automatic transmission, you put four quarts in, then start the car and let it idle in PARK. Then you add four more quarts, let it sit for a minute and check the level. Add half quarts until it shows on the dipstick, then pints until its in the operating range. If it is even 1 quart low it might not move but you will burn clutches. NEVER ever under any circumstances rev the engine way up in an attempt to get the car to move while filling the trans. The first time you put it in gear should be at idle, and you let it engage fully before doing anything. I usually put it in reverse first to make sure that works. Then after reverse works I try low 1, after that works I go for a short trip to see if the trans shifts all the while keeping RPM under 3000.
If the front pump is broken, then it isnt going anywhere no matter how much fluid you put in it. Its a common novice mistake to break the front pump when bolting the trans to the engine. You support the converter by the pilot, thats the big round thing in the middle, and turn it while adding some mild pressure and rocking the converter around a bit. If it doesnt engage the front pump it will break the gear, then you have to pull it all apart again and change the pump.
07-26-2009, 02:57 AM
#7
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: AZ
Posts: 5
Im her bf. We went round and round with what the trans is. Its not a C4 its too big. The guy she bought it from, we had a long discussion with how much of a frankenstein the car is, he said the trans was out of a late model van. He was unsure of what it was exactly but thinks its a C6. She did a ton of research on what her trans is mainly by the pan. The C6 and T5 have a closely related pan so she thought it was a T5, however thats a manual (what the care came with) and we came down to it being a C6.
Anyway. She dropped the pan, replaced the filter and gasket. Put 6 quarts of type F in. Shortly after we actually drove the car around the block while it was still having over heating issues. The car moved fine with 6 quarts in it. So no shes moving, car has sat for a good 3 months or so because we couldnt get it to start after the points burnt out AGAIN. Now. Start it, doesnt move. Check it, nothing on the dip stick. Car runs about 10 mins we shut it off go get 2 quarts, car takes quart and half and theres now fluid on the dipstick where it should be. Car still doesnt move. Car ran for a good 10 more mins, the trans was definitely OP temp. They're going to go look at it tomorrow check fluid again, go from there. Its more than likely going to be towed to the new house.
My dad's been an Automotive Technician for 25+ yrs, talking with him he believes one of the seals could've dried out. Its not moving now because the primary clutches wont engage.
Sorry for the long read. But when someone says things like "o the pump doesnt have fluid" or "theres not enough fluid" when we moved the car on 6 quarts I can get a little frustrated. Thanks for the suggestions
Anyway. She dropped the pan, replaced the filter and gasket. Put 6 quarts of type F in. Shortly after we actually drove the car around the block while it was still having over heating issues. The car moved fine with 6 quarts in it. So no shes moving, car has sat for a good 3 months or so because we couldnt get it to start after the points burnt out AGAIN. Now. Start it, doesnt move. Check it, nothing on the dip stick. Car runs about 10 mins we shut it off go get 2 quarts, car takes quart and half and theres now fluid on the dipstick where it should be. Car still doesnt move. Car ran for a good 10 more mins, the trans was definitely OP temp. They're going to go look at it tomorrow check fluid again, go from there. Its more than likely going to be towed to the new house.
My dad's been an Automotive Technician for 25+ yrs, talking with him he believes one of the seals could've dried out. Its not moving now because the primary clutches wont engage.
Sorry for the long read. But when someone says things like "o the pump doesnt have fluid" or "theres not enough fluid" when we moved the car on 6 quarts I can get a little frustrated. Thanks for the suggestions
07-26-2009, 03:04 AM
#8
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: AZ
Posts: 5
reading back over your suggestions, to answer your questions:
after it moved a bit (blipped the throttle, not revving it high) we called it broken and checked the fluid again for ****s and giggles. Still in the good range and nothing. Im starting to think maybe the pump went bad since someone said its pretty common.
I know how to fill an auto trans, I know how to stab a converter, etc. The car hasnt had the trans out or the converter out since she's had it.
I apologize, Im a GM man, so 305 just came out when typing that, haha its a 302...
and to be quite honest Im not POSITIVE its a C6, I would need to put the car on a lift and look at it myself. As far as we know it is a C6, for the sake of argument it is. The kids who had it before the guy she got it from were gonna make it a "race car" haha, and failed miserably, but one day the car will be completely gone through and rebuilt.
after it moved a bit (blipped the throttle, not revving it high) we called it broken and checked the fluid again for ****s and giggles. Still in the good range and nothing. Im starting to think maybe the pump went bad since someone said its pretty common.
I know how to fill an auto trans, I know how to stab a converter, etc. The car hasnt had the trans out or the converter out since she's had it.
I apologize, Im a GM man, so 305 just came out when typing that, haha its a 302...
and to be quite honest Im not POSITIVE its a C6, I would need to put the car on a lift and look at it myself. As far as we know it is a C6, for the sake of argument it is. The kids who had it before the guy she got it from were gonna make it a "race car" haha, and failed miserably, but one day the car will be completely gone through and rebuilt.
Last edited by 00Silv4.8; 07-26-2009 at 03:07 AM.
07-26-2009, 03:19 AM
#9
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AR
Posts: 5,469
Well youu should get your dad to fix it up then....
I was reading between the lines and figured the car had been sitting somewhere for a while, 3 months is a while no?
I wonder how much of that 6 quarts leaked out in those 3 months?
I understand that you put a quart and a half in and it "showed on the stick", but if the pump was empty, (no prime) it was likely not pumping out, so, fluid shows on the stick, but the pump ain't pumpin... (and better than 1/2 the tranny is EMPTY, while the stick shows full)
Thumpin gave you a very good fill procedure, might want to take the advise before you call AAMCO...
It MIGHT be something else, like a lip seal, but I am trying to imagine what might have happened to the car in the threee months it was parked that the tranny stopped working, my guess is that the MOST LIKELY thing is that the FLUID LEAKED OUT,,, just a guess....
Try adding some fluid, buy the cheap stuff...
I was reading between the lines and figured the car had been sitting somewhere for a while, 3 months is a while no?
I wonder how much of that 6 quarts leaked out in those 3 months?
I understand that you put a quart and a half in and it "showed on the stick", but if the pump was empty, (no prime) it was likely not pumping out, so, fluid shows on the stick, but the pump ain't pumpin... (and better than 1/2 the tranny is EMPTY, while the stick shows full)
Thumpin gave you a very good fill procedure, might want to take the advise before you call AAMCO...
It MIGHT be something else, like a lip seal, but I am trying to imagine what might have happened to the car in the threee months it was parked that the tranny stopped working, my guess is that the MOST LIKELY thing is that the FLUID LEAKED OUT,,, just a guess....
Try adding some fluid, buy the cheap stuff...
07-26-2009, 11:30 AM
#10
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: California
Posts: 441
OK, from the new info you gave us, now we know the seals in the pump are rotten, let's find out what trans! Along with the stuff I already gave you, how many pan bolts are there? A C-4 and C-5 will have 11 bolts, a FMX will have 14, and the C-6 has 17. Those are the only trannys that will bolt directly up without an adapter. (In a 3 speed trans I meant.) We can only try to help but if we do not know the info, it makes it harder on us and then you get upset. Had to deal with that at work and it was hard. The worse was "why did the bolts strip out when I torqued the valve body down?"