Androdz2

Exactly what you can do is raise the safety threshold on a car. WHy do u want to risk over 5k on a shortblock just going kaboom when just $6 can make u go safer. I am currently setting up a w/m system for my car for safety. Will just spray water to lower the IAT's, will have a different map for the alcohol.

Andrew

MexGT

20 lbs in pump ? uhmmmm what Compression Ratio is your engine builder thinking btw?

tooslow

thanks for all the replys / i guess the best idea is for two tunes / 16-20 sounds about right // thanks again

tooslow

if i decide to go with this whats a good price for this with install / a dss strocker short block alumium/ valve springs /clutch not sur with one ?/meth inj/ tuned/ill be supplying all the stuff from k.b , 8 rib, 60 lbs inj. fuel pumps etc

tached_out

[quote]ORIGINAL: Androdz2

I completely disagree with you on watermethanol injection. on the fuel system and pretty much everything you have said on this post. 1st of all the lethal performance ultimate fuel system is riddled with problems as you ALREADY KNOW. 700hp with a gt500 setup is DOABLE there are some gt500's already running 710hp with their stock fuel system. You can lower your duty cycles with the dual BAP's. The triple fuel pump set-up is way over kill I would only consider it if you were over 1krwhp. I am with you on the daily driver 800rwhp with a KB that will be completely wasted power. If you were turbo it would be better because you can control the PSI per gear and RPM's which would make it much more streetable. The reason people use water methanol injection is because of TWO THINGS. 1. To lower the Temperature inside the combustion chamber(water) to reduce chance of detonation 2. To raise the octane of the gasoline to also reduce the chance of detonation. Here is a write-up I made on water methanol injection so that you can read and educate yourself on it.

After seeing various threads about water methanol injection I decided to dedicate a thread on more precise info. Mods please put on Table of contents! thanks

Water/meth injection is a great modification and can be used for basically all type of motorsports. Usually people use methanol and water already premixed in the form of windshield cleaning liquids that already come with a % of alcohol to lower the freezing temperature of the liquid in cold temperatures. But there is also people that have tanks in their house and do their own mixes 30%water/70%methanol, 50%water/50%methanol and then they are people that only use water or alcohol only.

Water helps to lower the temperature in the combustion chamber and the alcohol to increase the octane rating of the gasoline. Injecting water only you benefit by lowering the combustion temperature and you can increase timing/boost w/o having detonation. Injecting alcohol only you benefit from the increased octane rating that the alcohol provides and the octane rating for example from your regular 93 octane gas can go to 105 octane thus preventing even further detonation.

It is a great upgrade but at the same time it is very dangerous. I donโ€™t know if you know that methanol is extremely dangerous if it is inhaled or if it comes into contact with skin; it is a cancerous substance. It is also extremely corrosive(For example cars that run with methanol for gasoline have to โ€œflushโ€ the fuel system after every race or event) having an extra plastic tank (with alcohol) in the trunk with alcohol lines going thru the cabin is extremely dangerous in an accident; it is a fire hazard. But also if it is used with caution and knowning how to use it with all necessary precautions it is a great upgrade it allows you to run almost as if you were running c16 on your gas tank and it is much cheaper than race gas.

There is a huge variety of water/alcohol injection systems (coolingmist, aquamist, hydramist, snow performance, fjo racing, devils own, etcโ€ฆ) Some work โ€œstand aloneโ€ and others need to be connected to an engine management computer. They are simple systems that only include the tank, lines, fittings, bombs and the controller. After connecting everything, the controller needs a input of boost/vacuum or MAP/MAF input and you decide at how many pounds of boost (or vacuum N/A) is when you want the system to start injecting water/alcohol and at how many pounds you want it to stop, as you keep increasing boost most systems typically inject more water/methanol in a linear manner until reaching your max boost level. They are other systems that require input from the injector and the system โ€œmatchesโ€ the flow of water/alcohol with the injector flow.

It has been proved hundreds of times that only adding a water/methanol injection system w/o any other change in a/f ratios, boost or timing you are going to gain absolutely NOTHINGโ€ฆ many even loose hp because the a/f is lowered exponentially.

One of the things that you have to keep in mind are โ€œfail safesโ€ for when the system fails. For example the pump stops working, the line gets clogged, your water/methanol tank is empty and you didnโ€™t notice it and you are at full boost this typically means a blown motor. That is unless you have some sort of โ€œfail safeโ€ that allow the ecu of your car to change to a less aggressive map (93 octane only) or lower the wastegate boost among others.

I donโ€™t know if you have seen pistons, valves and engine heads from a motor that uses water injecti

Androdz2

Not it has not been all cleared out people are still haven't erradic voltage + inconsistent readings/psi and problems with the check valve. You can make 800hp with the gt500 sytem with BAP's, The BAP's have been tried over and over again not 1 has failed yet. That tripple fuel hat is severe overkill like I sad that less than 1% of the mustang population will actually need. For example Modaddict runs 9's on his setup with a gt500 system and dual BAP's, you planning on running 7's?

Now i am very curious on what you say about the methanol injection that the lines brokes? What kind of lines was he running? Like I said on the post that you quoted that seems like you didn't read it completely; I state that methanol is a very corrosive substance. You do need lines that are approved for methanol. Same thing as you would with any fuel line. Would you use regular heathose as your fuel line? Guess not. Back to the methanol what actual experience do you have with any system IF ANY. Running 20psi on pump gas is just dumb and ignorant in my honest opinion without raising either the octane of the gas or lowering the temperature in the combustion chamber. I still haven't seen one good kit fail yet and I do work with them quite a lot. Yes I have seen cheap DIY kits or the really really cheap ones fail but I have not seen one of the good kits fail. For example on the STI with a aquamyst w/m injection system we are able to squeeze 78rwhp more on pump gas.

Water Injection is a really really great mod if you take the time to do it CORRECTLY. The only problem that is has is the same problem turbos have. That usually the people that talk bad about them have never had any real life experience with either and just talk about a newb story they read or something like that.

Andrew

tached_out

The whole this is why risk it all for a street car and the it was the same kit that Snow offers for the SN95's that failed.

I was talked out of Meth by multiple tuners. Adam from ST being one of them. All of them said the same thing. Why?

I responded to make more power and have a more aggressive tune for the street. They said do you really want to put your car at an additional risk of destoring an entire block for street performance when you will all ready be making 600rwhp?

So I stated back well then just for safety? They replied with the proper intercooler and tune you will not be at risk on your car. No matter what meth system you have if you are beating the crap out of it in 120 degree weather that is still not good for your car.

The amount of time you have between runs on the track is more then enough time to allow your car to cool. That adding more complex mods to an all ready complex car is just asking for additional things to fail. Nothing is ever fail proof. Could I really afford to replace an entire engine block because of a failure. No. Am I garenteed that the system will not fail. I dont think so.

Are there right now many people running there cars in hot weather? Yes Where I live it gets to around 112 in Fresno on a bad day. I have friends with cars ranging from 400rwhp to 750rwhp that drive in that weather with out meth. NONE of them has ever had an issue because it was hot. Also none of them beat the crap out of there cars either.

its just common sense not to run your car to the ground in that type of weather. Get your self a good radiator and intercooler and I though you should be more then fine with your temps with out meth.

Lito

We have a car with twins running 22psi on our pump gas (about 91 yours) since about a year and a GT500 on 25, not a single knock, the thing is having the right timing. Both cars are on the safe side, rounding 11AFR.

We don't have easy access to high octane fuel, and the guy that has the VP dealership in the country sell it like it was gold, OTOH pump gas is just about 10 cents/gall.

modaddict

I'll make this short and sweet...

Meth = not for V8 Motors IMO


Now as far as 20 psi on a KB on pump. I don't have to give you an opinion on that. It is 100% FACT that you will NOT be able to run 20 psi on a 2.6 on 91 octane regardless of the timing in the tune. It doesn't matter if it's 9ยบ - You do not want to run more than 16 psi or so on a KB on pump...period. Not only does the boost levels demand better fuel, but the KB at those boost levels runs hotter than satin at the beach and you will also need other supporting cooling mods (bigger rad, better HE, better IC pump, bigger resevoir, etc.) to be able to run that kind of boost levels on the street with a KB...

Takes a whole 1 minute to change a pulley on the KB. Run 12-14 psi on the street and when you get to the track, drop good gas in, switch to a 2.5" pulley, lower your idler 2 spaces, tighten the belt back down and make 20-21 psi no problem. That is the only smart thing to do regardless of what shortblock is in the car....

Sorry Lito, but I call BIG BS...[sm=bs.gif]

No way on earth you have an S197 with 22 psi through twins on 91 octane. Unless of course this is some new kit I haven't heard about with 21mm turbos...[8D] I would love to see vids of your S197 with 22 psi twins running down the track. You must be trapping at least 160 mph...[&:]

No way you have a GT500 on 25 psi on 91 octane either. First of all, no one in their right mind is going to want to get 25 psi out of the power robbing factory roots blower. They would first swap to a 2.8 or 3.4 - second, at even 25 psi on the 5.4 - you would want 100 octane to keep the boost in check even with the most conservative timing and tune parameters. Hell, even running fat AFR with baby timing, you would still want the octane to keep the car in check. Boost is just like compression... the higher = the higher the octane required...


Then again, you are talking about another country so I could be wrong. Perhaps your boost gauges measure psi in a different metric conversion... i.e. 25 psi in your terms means 12 psi in real terms - if this is the case, the I apologize and excuse the post but I really think it's just BS.


PS - I'm not trying to flame you personally but some things in fairy tale land are okay as just good ole' fashioned smack talkin' but some remarks (like the one you made) is actually dangerous on a forum if not checked because someone new who doesn't know better might lose an engine listening to nonsense.

TO EVERYONE: PSI is not some mythical number that you just throw around like dyno numbers. Nobody should mess with anything over 10 on a stock motor TS and 12 on a Centrifi & turbo stock motor without consulting one of the few professional shops in the country. I say few, cause IMO, there is only a dozen shops in the country who I consider 'knowing their stuff' when it comes to the S197. Once you step into the psi world above 12 - there is a lot more than just 'turning up the boost'...

Androdz2

The thing is like turbos on v8's every1 goes against it when they have little or no experience. The methanol systems have improved 10 folds in the past 5 years. They are really hot on the import market hell all the top import guys use them on the street tunes and such. With the controller you can put the 12v output to the wastegate so that it opens completely if it detects a malfunction, low fluid levels etc. There is only so much you can do with a bigger radiator/intercooler. You want to lower the combustion chamber temperature and raise the octane of the gas to give u more of a safety blanket. I do agree with you on the 600rwhp on the street but around here the street is really really hard. To many 800+hp cars including a 4wd ones. We need anything we can get.

Andrew