Alignment / Stability Issue
08-30-2007, 11:05 AM
#11
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Posts: 182
RE: Alignment / Stability Issue
Thanks F1Fan for clearing things up.
I thought about the lift issue a week or so ago and ordered a Legend splitter. I’m going to put on for the Labor Day event and see how it goes. It’s not adjustable, but I like the look so if it doesn’t make a difference, no big deal. I’ve noticed the hood really swells at high speeds so I can tell a lot of pressure builds up under the front of the vehicle. I may look at ways of reducing the under hood pressure (venting), short of getting a new hood. I’d vent to the side realizing it’s undesirable to coat the windshield with antifreeze if a hose blows.
I must admit, logically, it didn’t make sense to me initially that lift would give toe-out (seemed like lift would pull the wheels in). So I pulled out the compass and drew a couple arcs to represent the control arm and steering rack (just a used a steering radius 2x the control arm for illustrative purposes, not based on any actual measurements). The wider arc of the steering linkage quickly extends past the narrower arc of the control arm effectively pushing the tires out (on both compression and extension)… Science!
I’ll give the -1.75 degrees camber a try (based on your recommendation and GotMunchies?’s). I’ll see where the current toe is set when the car gets on the alignment rack. I may try a little more toe-in (if the toe hasn’t changed from the original setting) to get the stability back. I can back out from there. I spoke to the tech and he said he’d check the alignment with both sets of wheels on to see if they make any difference geometry wise. He also said his “track specs” for the Mustang are -1.75 to -2 degrees camber and .10 toe-in. I’ll talk to him more about bump steer on Friday when I take the car in.
How is 1/16” toe-out expressed as an angle?
The spherical rod ends (on one end) are loud. Especially the one for the pinion (BMR UCA) where the rod end attaches to the body and the poly bushing is in the pinion. I can really hear all the slop in the rear end, especially when shifting from first to second going around corners. The rod end ID is 9/16” and I’m still using the stock 14mm bolt so I’m probably getting some noise there as well. Just need to find time to change it out cause it’s a pain in the *** to get to. I had the rear end out when I installed it before. I’m thinking about switching to the Steeda UCA and have the spherical bearing in the pinion and the poly bushing at the body. However, the rear end really stays put in the corners. On the tighter track I was running, I was tapping the brakes to kick out the back end going into a couple of the corners. It would kick out, plant and stay put. No wiggle, wobble or sway at all. 100% predictable, you gotta like that.
I save 10 lbs. per wheel with my Enkei RS+M rims and Yokohama tires over the stock Bullets and BFG’s (weighed on the bathroom scale). I can’t remember the exact weights just the difference. I can really tell a difference in acceleration between the two sets of wheels. Especially when the RPMs get over 3000. I think the braking response feels better as well. 40 lbs reduction in rotational mass does make a difference.
The only problem I have now is the car is better than the driver… I’ll be looking for a one or two day driving school maybe later this fall or in the spring to try to fix that weak link ;-) Miller Motorsports Park looks interesting too… Just need to convince the wife how “necessary” it is.
I thought about the lift issue a week or so ago and ordered a Legend splitter. I’m going to put on for the Labor Day event and see how it goes. It’s not adjustable, but I like the look so if it doesn’t make a difference, no big deal. I’ve noticed the hood really swells at high speeds so I can tell a lot of pressure builds up under the front of the vehicle. I may look at ways of reducing the under hood pressure (venting), short of getting a new hood. I’d vent to the side realizing it’s undesirable to coat the windshield with antifreeze if a hose blows.
I must admit, logically, it didn’t make sense to me initially that lift would give toe-out (seemed like lift would pull the wheels in). So I pulled out the compass and drew a couple arcs to represent the control arm and steering rack (just a used a steering radius 2x the control arm for illustrative purposes, not based on any actual measurements). The wider arc of the steering linkage quickly extends past the narrower arc of the control arm effectively pushing the tires out (on both compression and extension)… Science!
I’ll give the -1.75 degrees camber a try (based on your recommendation and GotMunchies?’s). I’ll see where the current toe is set when the car gets on the alignment rack. I may try a little more toe-in (if the toe hasn’t changed from the original setting) to get the stability back. I can back out from there. I spoke to the tech and he said he’d check the alignment with both sets of wheels on to see if they make any difference geometry wise. He also said his “track specs” for the Mustang are -1.75 to -2 degrees camber and .10 toe-in. I’ll talk to him more about bump steer on Friday when I take the car in.
How is 1/16” toe-out expressed as an angle?
The spherical rod ends (on one end) are loud. Especially the one for the pinion (BMR UCA) where the rod end attaches to the body and the poly bushing is in the pinion. I can really hear all the slop in the rear end, especially when shifting from first to second going around corners. The rod end ID is 9/16” and I’m still using the stock 14mm bolt so I’m probably getting some noise there as well. Just need to find time to change it out cause it’s a pain in the *** to get to. I had the rear end out when I installed it before. I’m thinking about switching to the Steeda UCA and have the spherical bearing in the pinion and the poly bushing at the body. However, the rear end really stays put in the corners. On the tighter track I was running, I was tapping the brakes to kick out the back end going into a couple of the corners. It would kick out, plant and stay put. No wiggle, wobble or sway at all. 100% predictable, you gotta like that.
I save 10 lbs. per wheel with my Enkei RS+M rims and Yokohama tires over the stock Bullets and BFG’s (weighed on the bathroom scale). I can’t remember the exact weights just the difference. I can really tell a difference in acceleration between the two sets of wheels. Especially when the RPMs get over 3000. I think the braking response feels better as well. 40 lbs reduction in rotational mass does make a difference.
The only problem I have now is the car is better than the driver… I’ll be looking for a one or two day driving school maybe later this fall or in the spring to try to fix that weak link ;-) Miller Motorsports Park looks interesting too… Just need to convince the wife how “necessary” it is.
09-17-2007, 10:40 PM
#12
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location:
Posts: 7
RE: Alignment / Stability Issue
Red,
I noticed your post regarding the need for a good driving school, and since you mentioned Miller specifically, I have to give a plug. Disclosure, I work at Miller.
I can attest from personal experiencethat the school is second to none. I did the one-day intro to racing at Bondurant a number of years ago, and the school at MMP will give you far more track time. The day combines classroom, van session on-track, heel-toe exercises in the Mustang GT, skid car exercises in the Ford 500 skid car, and lead-and-follow on the track. You'll be on-track before lunch and most of the day afterwards. The lead instructor used to run the BMW school, and has been involved w/ schools for years (he and his dad trains all the celebs for the Toyota Long Beach GP).
Sorry for the shameless plug, but I couldn't resist.
I noticed your post regarding the need for a good driving school, and since you mentioned Miller specifically, I have to give a plug. Disclosure, I work at Miller.
I can attest from personal experiencethat the school is second to none. I did the one-day intro to racing at Bondurant a number of years ago, and the school at MMP will give you far more track time. The day combines classroom, van session on-track, heel-toe exercises in the Mustang GT, skid car exercises in the Ford 500 skid car, and lead-and-follow on the track. You'll be on-track before lunch and most of the day afterwards. The lead instructor used to run the BMW school, and has been involved w/ schools for years (he and his dad trains all the celebs for the Toyota Long Beach GP).
Sorry for the shameless plug, but I couldn't resist.
09-29-2007, 02:07 PM
#13
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: California
Posts: 1,471
RE: Alignment / Stability Issue
ORIGINAL: Red06
Thanks F1Fan for clearing things up.
I thought about the lift issue a week or so ago and ordered a Legend splitter. I’m going to put on for the Labor Day event and see how it goes. It’s not adjustable, but I like the look so if it doesn’t make a difference, no big deal. I’ve noticed the hood really swells at high speeds so I can tell a lot of pressure builds up under the front of the vehicle. I may look at ways of reducing the under hood pressure (venting), short of getting a new hood. I’d vent to the side realizing it’s undesirable to coat the windshield with antifreeze if a hose blows.
I must admit, logically, it didn’t make sense to me initially that lift would give toe-out (seemed like lift would pull the wheels in). So I pulled out the compass and drew a couple arcs to represent the control arm and steering rack (just a used a steering radius 2x the control arm for illustrative purposes, not based on any actual measurements). The wider arc of the steering linkage quickly extends past the narrower arc of the control arm effectively pushing the tires out (on both compression and extension)… Science!
I’ll give the -1.75 degrees camber a try (based on your recommendation and GotMunchies?’s). I’ll see where the current toe is set when the car gets on the alignment rack. I may try a little more toe-in (if the toe hasn’t changed from the original setting) to get the stability back. I can back out from there. I spoke to the tech and he said he’d check the alignment with both sets of wheels on to see if they make any difference geometry wise. He also said his “track specs” for the Mustang are -1.75 to -2 degrees camber and .10 toe-in. I’ll talk to him more about bump steer on Friday when I take the car in.
How is 1/16” toe-out expressed as an angle?
The spherical rod ends (on one end) are loud. Especially the one for the pinion (BMR UCA) where the rod end attaches to the body and the poly bushing is in the pinion. I can really hear all the slop in the rear end, especially when shifting from first to second going around corners. The rod end ID is 9/16” and I’m still using the stock 14mm bolt so I’m probably getting some noise there as well. Just need to find time to change it out cause it’s a pain in the *** to get to. I had the rear end out when I installed it before. I’m thinking about switching to the Steeda UCA and have the spherical bearing in the pinion and the poly bushing at the body. However, the rear end really stays put in the corners. On the tighter track I was running, I was tapping the brakes to kick out the back end going into a couple of the corners. It would kick out, plant and stay put. No wiggle, wobble or sway at all. 100% predictable, you gotta like that.
I save 10 lbs. per wheel with my Enkei RS+M rims and Yokohama tires over the stock Bullets and BFG’s (weighed on the bathroom scale). I can’t remember the exact weights just the difference. I can really tell a difference in acceleration between the two sets of wheels. Especially when the RPMs get over 3000. I think the braking response feels better as well. 40 lbs reduction in rotational mass does make a difference.
The only problem I have now is the car is better than the driver… I’ll be looking for a one or two day driving school maybe later this fall or in the spring to try to fix that weak link ;-) Miller Motorsports Park looks interesting too… Just need to convince the wife how “necessary” it is.
Thanks F1Fan for clearing things up.
I thought about the lift issue a week or so ago and ordered a Legend splitter. I’m going to put on for the Labor Day event and see how it goes. It’s not adjustable, but I like the look so if it doesn’t make a difference, no big deal. I’ve noticed the hood really swells at high speeds so I can tell a lot of pressure builds up under the front of the vehicle. I may look at ways of reducing the under hood pressure (venting), short of getting a new hood. I’d vent to the side realizing it’s undesirable to coat the windshield with antifreeze if a hose blows.
I must admit, logically, it didn’t make sense to me initially that lift would give toe-out (seemed like lift would pull the wheels in). So I pulled out the compass and drew a couple arcs to represent the control arm and steering rack (just a used a steering radius 2x the control arm for illustrative purposes, not based on any actual measurements). The wider arc of the steering linkage quickly extends past the narrower arc of the control arm effectively pushing the tires out (on both compression and extension)… Science!
I’ll give the -1.75 degrees camber a try (based on your recommendation and GotMunchies?’s). I’ll see where the current toe is set when the car gets on the alignment rack. I may try a little more toe-in (if the toe hasn’t changed from the original setting) to get the stability back. I can back out from there. I spoke to the tech and he said he’d check the alignment with both sets of wheels on to see if they make any difference geometry wise. He also said his “track specs” for the Mustang are -1.75 to -2 degrees camber and .10 toe-in. I’ll talk to him more about bump steer on Friday when I take the car in.
How is 1/16” toe-out expressed as an angle?
The spherical rod ends (on one end) are loud. Especially the one for the pinion (BMR UCA) where the rod end attaches to the body and the poly bushing is in the pinion. I can really hear all the slop in the rear end, especially when shifting from first to second going around corners. The rod end ID is 9/16” and I’m still using the stock 14mm bolt so I’m probably getting some noise there as well. Just need to find time to change it out cause it’s a pain in the *** to get to. I had the rear end out when I installed it before. I’m thinking about switching to the Steeda UCA and have the spherical bearing in the pinion and the poly bushing at the body. However, the rear end really stays put in the corners. On the tighter track I was running, I was tapping the brakes to kick out the back end going into a couple of the corners. It would kick out, plant and stay put. No wiggle, wobble or sway at all. 100% predictable, you gotta like that.
I save 10 lbs. per wheel with my Enkei RS+M rims and Yokohama tires over the stock Bullets and BFG’s (weighed on the bathroom scale). I can’t remember the exact weights just the difference. I can really tell a difference in acceleration between the two sets of wheels. Especially when the RPMs get over 3000. I think the braking response feels better as well. 40 lbs reduction in rotational mass does make a difference.
The only problem I have now is the car is better than the driver… I’ll be looking for a one or two day driving school maybe later this fall or in the spring to try to fix that weak link ;-) Miller Motorsports Park looks interesting too… Just need to convince the wife how “necessary” it is.
What happened to that front splitter? Any pictures and comments oninstalling it? Hey Ididn'tnotice that your on Eibach Pro-Kit springs and I forgot to suggest installinga Steeda or Baer Bumpsteer Kit to solve what is essentailly a bumpsteer error. With the Pro-Kit springs you have major bumpsteer error, just look at the front control arm angle and compare it to the steering tie rod angles! I've been running the Steeda kit and it works great but Baer's kit is about the same quality and I'm certain works just as well.
Cheers!
10-01-2007, 11:38 AM
#14
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Posts: 182
RE: Alignment / Stability Issue
ORIGINAL: F1Fan
Hi Red06,
What happened to that front splitter? Any pictures and comments oninstalling it? Hey Ididn'tnotice that your on Eibach Pro-Kit springs and I forgot to suggest installinga Steeda or Baer Bumpsteer Kit to solve what is essentailly a bumpsteer error. With the Pro-Kit springs you have major bumpsteer error, just look at the front control arm angle and compare it to the steering tie rod angles! I've been running the Steeda kit and it works great but Baer's kit is about the same quality and I'm certain works just as well.
Cheers!
ORIGINAL: Red06
Thanks F1Fan for clearing things up.
I thought about the lift issue a week or so ago and ordered a Legend splitter. I’m going to put on for the Labor Day event and see how it goes. It’s not adjustable, but I like the look so if it doesn’t make a difference, no big deal. I’ve noticed the hood really swells at high speeds so I can tell a lot of pressure builds up under the front of the vehicle. I may look at ways of reducing the under hood pressure (venting), short of getting a new hood. I’d vent to the side realizing it’s undesirable to coat the windshield with antifreeze if a hose blows.
I must admit, logically, it didn’t make sense to me initially that lift would give toe-out (seemed like lift would pull the wheels in). So I pulled out the compass and drew a couple arcs to represent the control arm and steering rack (just a used a steering radius 2x the control arm for illustrative purposes, not based on any actual measurements). The wider arc of the steering linkage quickly extends past the narrower arc of the control arm effectively pushing the tires out (on both compression and extension)… Science!
I’ll give the -1.75 degrees camber a try (based on your recommendation and GotMunchies?’s). I’ll see where the current toe is set when the car gets on the alignment rack. I may try a little more toe-in (if the toe hasn’t changed from the original setting) to get the stability back. I can back out from there. I spoke to the tech and he said he’d check the alignment with both sets of wheels on to see if they make any difference geometry wise. He also said his “track specs” for the Mustang are -1.75 to -2 degrees camber and .10 toe-in. I’ll talk to him more about bump steer on Friday when I take the car in.
How is 1/16” toe-out expressed as an angle?
The spherical rod ends (on one end) are loud. Especially the one for the pinion (BMR UCA) where the rod end attaches to the body and the poly bushing is in the pinion. I can really hear all the slop in the rear end, especially when shifting from first to second going around corners. The rod end ID is 9/16” and I’m still using the stock 14mm bolt so I’m probably getting some noise there as well. Just need to find time to change it out cause it’s a pain in the *** to get to. I had the rear end out when I installed it before. I’m thinking about switching to the Steeda UCA and have the spherical bearing in the pinion and the poly bushing at the body. However, the rear end really stays put in the corners. On the tighter track I was running, I was tapping the brakes to kick out the back end going into a couple of the corners. It would kick out, plant and stay put. No wiggle, wobble or sway at all. 100% predictable, you gotta like that.
I save 10 lbs. per wheel with my Enkei RS+M rims and Yokohama tires over the stock Bullets and BFG’s (weighed on the bathroom scale). I can’t remember the exact weights just the difference. I can really tell a difference in acceleration between the two sets of wheels. Especially when the RPMs get over 3000. I think the braking response feels better as well. 40 lbs reduction in rotational mass does make a difference.
The only problem I have now is the car is better than the driver… I’ll be looking for a one or two day driving school maybe later this fall or in the spring to try to fix that weak link ;-) Miller Motorsports Park looks interesting too… Just need to convince the wife how “necessary” it is.
Thanks F1Fan for clearing things up.
I thought about the lift issue a week or so ago and ordered a Legend splitter. I’m going to put on for the Labor Day event and see how it goes. It’s not adjustable, but I like the look so if it doesn’t make a difference, no big deal. I’ve noticed the hood really swells at high speeds so I can tell a lot of pressure builds up under the front of the vehicle. I may look at ways of reducing the under hood pressure (venting), short of getting a new hood. I’d vent to the side realizing it’s undesirable to coat the windshield with antifreeze if a hose blows.
I must admit, logically, it didn’t make sense to me initially that lift would give toe-out (seemed like lift would pull the wheels in). So I pulled out the compass and drew a couple arcs to represent the control arm and steering rack (just a used a steering radius 2x the control arm for illustrative purposes, not based on any actual measurements). The wider arc of the steering linkage quickly extends past the narrower arc of the control arm effectively pushing the tires out (on both compression and extension)… Science!
I’ll give the -1.75 degrees camber a try (based on your recommendation and GotMunchies?’s). I’ll see where the current toe is set when the car gets on the alignment rack. I may try a little more toe-in (if the toe hasn’t changed from the original setting) to get the stability back. I can back out from there. I spoke to the tech and he said he’d check the alignment with both sets of wheels on to see if they make any difference geometry wise. He also said his “track specs” for the Mustang are -1.75 to -2 degrees camber and .10 toe-in. I’ll talk to him more about bump steer on Friday when I take the car in.
How is 1/16” toe-out expressed as an angle?
The spherical rod ends (on one end) are loud. Especially the one for the pinion (BMR UCA) where the rod end attaches to the body and the poly bushing is in the pinion. I can really hear all the slop in the rear end, especially when shifting from first to second going around corners. The rod end ID is 9/16” and I’m still using the stock 14mm bolt so I’m probably getting some noise there as well. Just need to find time to change it out cause it’s a pain in the *** to get to. I had the rear end out when I installed it before. I’m thinking about switching to the Steeda UCA and have the spherical bearing in the pinion and the poly bushing at the body. However, the rear end really stays put in the corners. On the tighter track I was running, I was tapping the brakes to kick out the back end going into a couple of the corners. It would kick out, plant and stay put. No wiggle, wobble or sway at all. 100% predictable, you gotta like that.
I save 10 lbs. per wheel with my Enkei RS+M rims and Yokohama tires over the stock Bullets and BFG’s (weighed on the bathroom scale). I can’t remember the exact weights just the difference. I can really tell a difference in acceleration between the two sets of wheels. Especially when the RPMs get over 3000. I think the braking response feels better as well. 40 lbs reduction in rotational mass does make a difference.
The only problem I have now is the car is better than the driver… I’ll be looking for a one or two day driving school maybe later this fall or in the spring to try to fix that weak link ;-) Miller Motorsports Park looks interesting too… Just need to convince the wife how “necessary” it is.
What happened to that front splitter? Any pictures and comments oninstalling it? Hey Ididn'tnotice that your on Eibach Pro-Kit springs and I forgot to suggest installinga Steeda or Baer Bumpsteer Kit to solve what is essentailly a bumpsteer error. With the Pro-Kit springs you have major bumpsteer error, just look at the front control arm angle and compare it to the steering tie rod angles! I've been running the Steeda kit and it works great but Baer's kit is about the same quality and I'm certain works just as well.
Cheers!
The Legend splitter install was a piece of cake and took less than an hour. Prior to purchasing the splitter, I e-mailed Legend to get an idea of how difficult the install was and if I needed anything ahead of time. John Temple sent me the install instruction sheet the same day (great customer service). It was a good thing I did as no instructions came with the splitter (Mustangs Unlimited). Before the install, I painted it with some flat black textured paint to darken it up a bit. I really like the look. The track I went to after the install (GingerMan in western Michigan) has tight corners going into and between the two straights so I wasn’t able to get much above 95 mph so I wasn’t able to tell if it helped my stability issue.
I did make some alignment changes adding more negative camber and a bit more toe-in (I don’t have the spces with me at work). But again I wasn’t able to go fast enough to see if this made any difference regarding the high speed stability. It was also the first time at this track so I had nothing to compare the cornering bite to. I must say, the car did perform well and I had a blast.
At this point I don’t have anyone who can properly adjust the bumpsteer. As I mentioned before, I did the geometry experiment and understand how lowering effects the steering. The best thing I could do would be to take an angle gauge and measure the tie rod angle from a stock GT (on 18” wheels like mine) and then set the tie rod on mine to the same angle with a bump steer kit. Would that be better than doing nothing?
Here is a picture in the paddock at GingerMan (with the crew chief and co-pilot). I hope it works.
Cheers!
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/9DC49461118E4CD8A3A0373293CA2ED8.jpg[/IMG]
10-01-2007, 02:23 PM
#15
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: California
Posts: 1,471
RE: Alignment / Stability Issue
ORIGINAL: Red06
Hi F-1 Fan,
The Legend splitter install was a piece of cake and took less than an hour. Prior to purchasing the splitter, I e-mailed Legend to get an idea of how difficult the install was and if I needed anything ahead of time. John Temple sent me the install instruction sheet the same day (great customer service). It was a good thing I did as no instructions came with the splitter (Mustangs Unlimited). Before the install, I painted it with some flat black textured paint to darken it up a bit. I really like the look. The track I went to after the install (GingerMan in western Michigan) has tight corners going into and between the two straights so I wasn’t able to get much above 95 mph so I wasn’t able to tell if it helped my stability issue.
I did make some alignment changes adding more negative camber and a bit more toe-in (I don’t have the spces with me at work). But again I wasn’t able to go fast enough to see if this made any difference regarding the high speed stability. It was also the first time at this track so I had nothing to compare the cornering bite to. I must say, the car did perform well and I had a blast.
At this point I don’t have anyone who can properly adjust the bumpsteer. As I mentioned before, I did the geometry experiment and understand how lowering effects the steering. The best thing I could do would be to take an angle gauge and measure the tie rod angle from a stock GT (on 18” wheels like mine) and then set the tie rod on mine to the same angle with a bump steer kit. Would that be better than doing nothing?
Here is a picture in the paddock at GingerMan (with the crew chief and co-pilot). I hope it works.
Cheers!
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/9DC49461118E4CD8A3A0373293CA2ED8.jpg[/IMG]
Hi F-1 Fan,
The Legend splitter install was a piece of cake and took less than an hour. Prior to purchasing the splitter, I e-mailed Legend to get an idea of how difficult the install was and if I needed anything ahead of time. John Temple sent me the install instruction sheet the same day (great customer service). It was a good thing I did as no instructions came with the splitter (Mustangs Unlimited). Before the install, I painted it with some flat black textured paint to darken it up a bit. I really like the look. The track I went to after the install (GingerMan in western Michigan) has tight corners going into and between the two straights so I wasn’t able to get much above 95 mph so I wasn’t able to tell if it helped my stability issue.
I did make some alignment changes adding more negative camber and a bit more toe-in (I don’t have the spces with me at work). But again I wasn’t able to go fast enough to see if this made any difference regarding the high speed stability. It was also the first time at this track so I had nothing to compare the cornering bite to. I must say, the car did perform well and I had a blast.
At this point I don’t have anyone who can properly adjust the bumpsteer. As I mentioned before, I did the geometry experiment and understand how lowering effects the steering. The best thing I could do would be to take an angle gauge and measure the tie rod angle from a stock GT (on 18” wheels like mine) and then set the tie rod on mine to the same angle with a bump steer kit. Would that be better than doing nothing?
Here is a picture in the paddock at GingerMan (with the crew chief and co-pilot). I hope it works.
Cheers!
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/9DC49461118E4CD8A3A0373293CA2ED8.jpg[/IMG]
Hey, that splitter looks pretty good! Can you post a better image of how the ends meet up and join the wheel well and fender? I kind of like itwhat is it made out of,fiberglass?
With an Eibach Pro-Kit springset youreally do needa bumpsteer kit.I had to change mybumpsteer adjustment quite a bit when I swaped out the Eibach Pro-Kit springs for the Steeda Competition springs on my car. Ican't say exactly how you should set your bumpsteeradjusters becauselong ago I installedSteeda's control arm relocation kit and have no notesforan Eibach Pro-Kitand Steeda Bumpsteer Kitcombination because I never had them inmy car withoutSteeda's control arm relocation kit already installed in my car. But I can tell you that a pretty goodplace to start is to set the bumpsteer kitrod-end heighttoasetting that puts the tie rods parallel tothe front control arms. I've found thatmyideal setup would be for the car to toe-in slightly when accellerating and to go totally neutral toe0.0"-0.0" or maybe 1/32" total toe-out under MAX braking if youlikethe car to turn-in on thebrakes. To setup the front end wellisnot hard to doif you have a bumpsteer/toe gauge and some time on your hands. But even withouta bumpsteer gauge you can get pretty close to idealby simply usingthe make the tie-rods parallel to the control arms eyeballedseatofthepants setting and Ican assure you the vagueness and nervous steering at speed (and surprisingly, alsowhen cruising on the highway), will go way down.
HTH!
10-01-2007, 02:43 PM
#16
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
RE: Alignment / Stability Issue
Not necessarily. Strictly speaking, that only works if the rack is at the same height as the chassis pivot axis of the control arm.
In general terms you want the tierod axis to intersect the control arm axis at the front view instant center. There's a geometric construction for this FVIC that involves a line drawn perpendicular to the strut tube axis at the strut's top pivot, but the short story is that if the rack is positioned higher than the control arm's chassis-side pivot axisthe tierod axis will need to converge toward the control arm axis as it goes from the outer rod end inward. Keep in mind that the control arm's functional axis (between the chassis side pivot and the ball joint rotational center) may differ from its physical appearance, so improving a bumpsteer condition by"eyeballing" this adjustment can be somewhat iffy.
It's a little hard to tell in the thumbnail, but I'd guess the negative camber is about double what you reported in the first post. It is clearly visible though.
Norm
In general terms you want the tierod axis to intersect the control arm axis at the front view instant center. There's a geometric construction for this FVIC that involves a line drawn perpendicular to the strut tube axis at the strut's top pivot, but the short story is that if the rack is positioned higher than the control arm's chassis-side pivot axisthe tierod axis will need to converge toward the control arm axis as it goes from the outer rod end inward. Keep in mind that the control arm's functional axis (between the chassis side pivot and the ball joint rotational center) may differ from its physical appearance, so improving a bumpsteer condition by"eyeballing" this adjustment can be somewhat iffy.
It's a little hard to tell in the thumbnail, but I'd guess the negative camber is about double what you reported in the first post. It is clearly visible though.
Norm
10-01-2007, 08:56 PM
#17
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: California
Posts: 1,471
RE: Alignment / Stability Issue
ORIGINAL: Norm Peterson
Not necessarily. Strictly speaking, that only works if the rack is at the same height as the chassis pivot axis of the control arm.
In general terms you want the tierod axis to intersect the control arm axis at the front view instant center. There's a geometric construction for this FVIC that involves a line drawn perpendicular to the strut tube axis at the strut's top pivot, but the short story is that if the rack is positioned higher than the control arm's chassis-side pivot axisthe tierod axis will need to converge toward the control arm axis as it goes from the outer rod end inward. Keep in mind that the control arm's functional axis (between the chassis side pivot and the ball joint rotational center) may differ from its physical appearance, so improving a bumpsteer condition by"eyeballing" this adjustment can be somewhat iffy.
It's a little hard to tell in the thumbnail, but I'd guess the negative camber is about double what you reported in the first post. It is clearly visible though.
Norm
Not necessarily. Strictly speaking, that only works if the rack is at the same height as the chassis pivot axis of the control arm.
In general terms you want the tierod axis to intersect the control arm axis at the front view instant center. There's a geometric construction for this FVIC that involves a line drawn perpendicular to the strut tube axis at the strut's top pivot, but the short story is that if the rack is positioned higher than the control arm's chassis-side pivot axisthe tierod axis will need to converge toward the control arm axis as it goes from the outer rod end inward. Keep in mind that the control arm's functional axis (between the chassis side pivot and the ball joint rotational center) may differ from its physical appearance, so improving a bumpsteer condition by"eyeballing" this adjustment can be somewhat iffy.
It's a little hard to tell in the thumbnail, but I'd guess the negative camber is about double what you reported in the first post. It is clearly visible though.
Norm
Hi Norm,
The S197's rackwhen centered positions the rack-side tie rod pivot in-line with the inside control arm pivot. With the wheels positioned straight ahead (did this on a laser alignment rack), the bumpsteer adjuster pivot happens to line upvery well with the imaginarypivot point on the outer end of the control arm, which isnot actually at the balljoint due to the offset design of the S197'sstrut suspension. With both of the short ends approximately square all you have to do is set the tie rod parallel to the control arm and you will be close enough to get 95% of the correction without the tedium of using an actual bumpsteer gauge. I'm not saying this is perfect nor that therecan beotherfactors to consider but onthe S197 chassis this works pretty well and puts you in the ball park with minimal real work.
Cheers!
10-02-2007, 07:32 AM
#18
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
RE: Alignment / Stability Issue
ORIGINAL: F1Fan
Hi Norm,
The S197's rackwhen centered positions the rack-side tie rod pivot in-line with the inside control arm pivot.
Hi Norm,
The S197's rackwhen centered positions the rack-side tie rod pivot in-line with the inside control arm pivot.
However, I'm having a little difficulty picturing this. . .
. . .with the imaginarypivot point on the outer end of the control arm, which isnot actually at the balljoint due to the offset design of the S197'sstrut suspension.
Strut suspensions can be more confusing than their visual simplicity suggests, and I'm wondering if this is another strut tube axis vs steering axis thing.
Norm
10-02-2007, 10:56 AM
#19
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Posts: 182
RE: Alignment / Stability Issue
[/quote]
Hi Red06,
Hey, that splitter looks pretty good! Can you post a better image of how the ends meet up and join the wheel well and fender? I kind of like itwhat is it made out of,fiberglass?
[/quote]
Hi F1Fan,
I'll see if I can get some more pictures before the weekend (work has been killing me). It is a composite material but I don't think it is fiberglass (doesn't say on the Legend web site http://www.legendmustangs.com/body-p...-splitter.html). It is textured on top and you can see the fibrous material on the bottom but it's not made from rolled fiberglass material. The install uses four existing holes in the bumper coverand then you drill and additional four holes to complete the install. I'll post more details later.
I really like the discussions between you and Norm. Maybe in the end, I'll understand what you all are talking about. I guess I shoud have taken the alignment class back in High School...
Hi Red06,
Hey, that splitter looks pretty good! Can you post a better image of how the ends meet up and join the wheel well and fender? I kind of like itwhat is it made out of,fiberglass?
[/quote]
Hi F1Fan,
I'll see if I can get some more pictures before the weekend (work has been killing me). It is a composite material but I don't think it is fiberglass (doesn't say on the Legend web site http://www.legendmustangs.com/body-p...-splitter.html). It is textured on top and you can see the fibrous material on the bottom but it's not made from rolled fiberglass material. The install uses four existing holes in the bumper coverand then you drill and additional four holes to complete the install. I'll post more details later.
I really like the discussions between you and Norm. Maybe in the end, I'll understand what you all are talking about. I guess I shoud have taken the alignment class back in High School...
10-19-2007, 10:54 AM
#20
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Posts: 182
RE: Alignment / Stability Issue
Hi F1Fan,
Here are some more pictures. I had to make them pretty small to fit the 500K size limit. I decided at the last minute to paint the splitter so I didn’t have much time to do fine tuning of the fit-up (I was leaving first thing in the morning). I imagine I could close up the gap in the wheel well a bit but it really doesn’t bother me. It is only held in place by the bolts so it would be easy to fit up at a later time if I ever feel the need.
Hope this helps.
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/9FB3FF33887C4ECA889CD2B029EAFCE2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/6E664CB51213422E90FB9478D38F37D8.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/BB240061E8894F7CB97A491D31B76E24.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/099D423E933A49A7B332FA2BF62D4271.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/FB60ACA67A1540B2A4810F088665101F.jpg[/IMG]
Here are some more pictures. I had to make them pretty small to fit the 500K size limit. I decided at the last minute to paint the splitter so I didn’t have much time to do fine tuning of the fit-up (I was leaving first thing in the morning). I imagine I could close up the gap in the wheel well a bit but it really doesn’t bother me. It is only held in place by the bolts so it would be easy to fit up at a later time if I ever feel the need.
Hope this helps.
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/9FB3FF33887C4ECA889CD2B029EAFCE2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/6E664CB51213422E90FB9478D38F37D8.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/BB240061E8894F7CB97A491D31B76E24.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/099D423E933A49A7B332FA2BF62D4271.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/41435/FB60ACA67A1540B2A4810F088665101F.jpg[/IMG]
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