Anyone with Billstein shocks and stock springs?
04-14-2008, 11:09 AM
#21
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RE: Anyone with Billstein shocks and stock springs?
Technically Bilstein, Koni, Tokico, KYB and most others have lifetime warranties. One thing I've found Koni excels at is warranty support. KYB and Tokico are a joke, and Bisltein is better but still makes you jump through a few hoops at times if you have one fail.
In my experiece when there is an issue, Koni and only Konisent out new units (with a core charge to insure return of the old one) so that you can get the work done fast, and at one time, swapping old for new.
In my experiece when there is an issue, Koni and only Konisent out new units (with a core charge to insure return of the old one) so that you can get the work done fast, and at one time, swapping old for new.
04-14-2008, 12:24 PM
#22
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: California
Posts: 1,471
RE: Anyone with Billstein shocks and stock springs?
ORIGINAL: STi Rob
Well I have to admit there is always a chance I will want to be more aggressive with my suspension setup in the future. Going with an adjustable shock and strut is probably going to be more economical in the long run. Now which ones do I go with, Koni or Tokico?
ORIGINAL: F1Fan
Hi Rob,
I can't recommend these if you have any possibility of changing your springs or bars for something with sporty intentions and I doubt you can know absolutely that they will work perfectly out of the box for you. This is the beauty of having an adjustable damper system. Rodeo Flyer and I went around on this one many moons ago and he outgrew the Billie HD'spretty quickly once he was on the track. Please listen to Sam and I when we tell you that for the money the Koni sport or Tokico D-Specs are a much better long term choice.
You never know what you might do or want to do with the car in a day ot a year from now. If two years ago you had told me I would become a big fan of playing paintball at 53 years old I would have laughed my butt off.
HTH!
ORIGINAL: STi Rob
My question is how much of a difference will the Billstein shocks make when used with the stock springs. Im looking to improve the feel and handling perfromance of the car but I realy dont wantto lower it due to it being my daily driver. Any input or personal experience will be greatly appreciated.
Thx,
Rob
My question is how much of a difference will the Billstein shocks make when used with the stock springs. Im looking to improve the feel and handling perfromance of the car but I realy dont wantto lower it due to it being my daily driver. Any input or personal experience will be greatly appreciated.
Thx,
Rob
I can't recommend these if you have any possibility of changing your springs or bars for something with sporty intentions and I doubt you can know absolutely that they will work perfectly out of the box for you. This is the beauty of having an adjustable damper system. Rodeo Flyer and I went around on this one many moons ago and he outgrew the Billie HD'spretty quickly once he was on the track. Please listen to Sam and I when we tell you that for the money the Koni sport or Tokico D-Specs are a much better long term choice.
You never know what you might do or want to do with the car in a day ot a year from now. If two years ago you had told me I would become a big fan of playing paintball at 53 years old I would have laughed my butt off.
HTH!
They are both excellent choicesbut three years agobased on the horriblereturn ratewe used to have asa distributor of Tokico's oldfixed blue and adjustable white dampers (this was 15 years ago)I would have said Koni all the way for a DD road car and weekend track toy. After all this is what I had been installing and using on the race track for 30 years with good results. But that wasbefore I had seen and used the new (to the USA at least)D-Spec dampers in the S197GTI drivedailyand weekends in the canyons and the occassional localopen track day event. The D-Spec dampers are every bit aswell made asany of theregular production Koni or Bilstein dampers and it shows in the quality of their damper's rod finish polishing, no leak seals,generalmechanical design andassembly. I can't vouch for theregular blue and white damperlines butTokico's D-Spec line takes Tokico out of the joke catagory they onceoccupied and intotheworld class adjustable damper catagory. Tokico AFAIK is still not able to provide the same level of support as Koni in termsof race services to the average guy like Koni can but for the most partwe're not driving race cars here.
For a street car that you are not certain ofwhat itslong term sportingfuture holdsyouwant to be able to tune the dampersfor everything fromdrag strip use, road course use, street performance use or comfy street use D-Specs areIMO a better option than the Koni's. This is because while both of these dampers are adjustable and have only a single adjustment **** that one **** on a D-Spec damper adjusts bothreboundand compresssion damping rates at the same time usingcurves that weredevelopedon theS197 chassisusing sport springs. Koni Sport damperscan only be adjusted forrebound damping which is normally justfine but tends to be more narrowly tuned for road course performance with more sporting springs.This is justa limitation of having a fixed compresion damping curve as Koni has chosen to use. For amore "sport" focused use with ride being a secondary concern I'd suggest Koni Sports but for a more broadbased use I'd suggest D-Specs. I say this because Koni dampers have moreconsistent damping and that they arevalved with a reasonably well selected compression rate which works well for "sporty" use. The D-Specs on the other hand have a much broaderrange of rebound and compression damping available which wasverycarefully developed by Steeda on S197 chassis in the real world using Steeda's ownlinear rate springs onroad courses, drag strips and the street. In terms of bang for the buck and broad application with excellent ride comfort you cannot beat the D-Specs. In pure performance terms the Konis on a road course IMOwouldget the nod but lose out in most of the other catagories.
Does this help?
Cheers!
04-14-2008, 02:35 PM
#23
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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RE: Anyone with Billstein shocks and stock springs?
I hate to do this.... but. I have had no failures of Koni's for this car. Have had a few with D-specs ranging from puking oil to adjusters not holdling position. I agree the bang for the buck is very good, if you don't break one. The range is much broader than the Koni's because Koni's have a more specific goal and don't try to be a shock for everyone. Because of that D-specs range can be much futher from optimal at times for handling and control. That's not a knock, simply stating that"real soft" isn't ideal for control, though you can adjust them and tune them in, and pretty well. I did indeed win Nationals on a set of D-specs, I have also changed to Koni's for various reasons, not the least of which is that I had some of the "creeping" shocks.
I agree this Tokico is superior to the Illumina or the old "blues", butthey aren'tquiteup to the Koni's or even Bilstein's (whichhave no adjustment)in terms of long term term durability IMHO.
I agree this Tokico is superior to the Illumina or the old "blues", butthey aren'tquiteup to the Koni's or even Bilstein's (whichhave no adjustment)in terms of long term term durability IMHO.
04-14-2008, 07:14 PM
#24
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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RE: Anyone with Billstein shocks and stock springs?
Thankyou for the continuing information. I still cant make up my mind as to which setup I will go with, I keep going back and forth between the Konis and the Bilsteins.
I can say this, my car will never be used for auto-x or open track. This tends to leanme in the direction of the Bilsteins. But on the other hand I will probably lower the car slightly (the Vogtland springsare looking good)which leaves me to wonder how well the Bilsteins will hold up being they are the HD series.
So Im kinda back where I started.
Rob
I can say this, my car will never be used for auto-x or open track. This tends to leanme in the direction of the Bilsteins. But on the other hand I will probably lower the car slightly (the Vogtland springsare looking good)which leaves me to wonder how well the Bilsteins will hold up being they are the HD series.
So Im kinda back where I started.
Rob
04-14-2008, 07:24 PM
#25
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RE: Anyone with Billstein shocks and stock springs?
Honestly, I don't even see that as a contest, especially now that lowering springs have been brought into the mix.
The car needs not be used for competition purposes to make use of adjustable damping. The car weighs what it weight, and that mass is always present regardless of how you are driving it. The harder you drive, the more control you probably want over that mass. The dampers are ignorant to the fact the car is out tearing up a back-road, autoxing, tracking, or running down an interstate.
I understand the Bilstein's cost less. But in the grand scheme of things, what is flexibility worth? I think it's worth a lot if it covers you bases and allows you to tune the car and the way it acts to your liking.Damping isn't about racing, it's about control, it's about feel and there are different opinions and levels of that.Cadillac's don't feel like BMW's, mostly because of shock damping... butboth feel their way is the "best" for the job at hand. Nothing else compares to the result and change you get from great damping control.And while I think you'd find HD's to be an improvement, I don't think you'd be getting the best bang for you bucks. I still feel that'd be D-specs (literal bang for every buck) and Koni's (more polish and a bit better long term quality, so a different result for the money).
The car needs not be used for competition purposes to make use of adjustable damping. The car weighs what it weight, and that mass is always present regardless of how you are driving it. The harder you drive, the more control you probably want over that mass. The dampers are ignorant to the fact the car is out tearing up a back-road, autoxing, tracking, or running down an interstate.
I understand the Bilstein's cost less. But in the grand scheme of things, what is flexibility worth? I think it's worth a lot if it covers you bases and allows you to tune the car and the way it acts to your liking.Damping isn't about racing, it's about control, it's about feel and there are different opinions and levels of that.Cadillac's don't feel like BMW's, mostly because of shock damping... butboth feel their way is the "best" for the job at hand. Nothing else compares to the result and change you get from great damping control.And while I think you'd find HD's to be an improvement, I don't think you'd be getting the best bang for you bucks. I still feel that'd be D-specs (literal bang for every buck) and Koni's (more polish and a bit better long term quality, so a different result for the money).
04-15-2008, 08:10 AM
#26
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RE: Anyone with Billstein shocks and stock springs?
ORIGINAL: F1Fan
Hi Rob,
They are both excellent choicesbut three years agobased on the horriblereturn ratewe used to have asa distributor of Tokico's oldfixed blue and adjustable white dampers (this was 15 years ago)I would have said Koni all the way for a DD road car and weekend track toy. After all this is what I had been installing and using on the race track for 30 years with good results. But that wasbefore I had seen and used the new (to the USA at least)D-Spec dampers in the S197GTI drivedailyand weekends in the canyons and the occassional localopen track day event. The D-Spec dampers are every bit aswell made asany of theregular production Koni or Bilstein dampers and it shows in the quality of their damper's rod finish polishing, no leak seals,generalmechanical design andassembly. I can't vouch for theregular blue and white damperlines butTokico's D-Spec line takes Tokico out of the joke catagory they onceoccupied and intotheworld class adjustable damper catagory. Tokico AFAIK is still not able to provide the same level of support as Koni in termsof race services to the average guy like Koni can but for the most partwe're not driving race cars here.
For a street car that you are not certain ofwhat itslong term sportingfuture holdsyouwant to be able to tune the dampersfor everything fromdrag strip use, road course use, street performance use or comfy street use D-Specs areIMO a better option than the Koni's. This is because while both of these dampers are adjustable and have only a single adjustment **** that one **** on a D-Spec damper adjusts bothreboundand compresssion damping rates at the same time usingcurves that weredevelopedon theS197 chassisusing sport springs. Koni Sport damperscan only be adjusted forrebound damping which is normally justfine but tends to be more narrowly tuned for road course performance with more sporting springs.This is justa limitation of having a fixed compresion damping curve as Koni has chosen to use. For amore "sport" focused use with ride being a secondary concern I'd suggest Koni Sports but for a more broadbased use I'd suggest D-Specs. I say this because Koni dampers have moreconsistent damping and that they arevalved with a reasonably well selected compression rate which works well for "sporty" use. The D-Specs on the other hand have a much broaderrange of rebound and compression damping available which wasverycarefully developed by Steeda on S197 chassis in the real world using Steeda's ownlinear rate springs onroad courses, drag strips and the street. In terms of bang for the buck and broad application with excellent ride comfort you cannot beat the D-Specs. In pure performance terms the Konis on a road course IMOwouldget the nod but lose out in most of the other catagories.
Does this help?
Cheers!
ORIGINAL: STi Rob
Well I have to admit there is always a chance I will want to be more aggressive with my suspension setup in the future. Going with an adjustable shock and strut is probably going to be more economical in the long run. Now which ones do I go with, Koni or Tokico?
ORIGINAL: F1Fan
Hi Rob,
I can't recommend these if you have any possibility of changing your springs or bars for something with sporty intentions and I doubt you can know absolutely that they will work perfectly out of the box for you. This is the beauty of having an adjustable damper system. Rodeo Flyer and I went around on this one many moons ago and he outgrew the Billie HD'spretty quickly once he was on the track. Please listen to Sam and I when we tell you that for the money the Koni sport or Tokico D-Specs are a much better long term choice.
You never know what you might do or want to do with the car in a day ot a year from now. If two years ago you had told me I would become a big fan of playing paintball at 53 years old I would have laughed my butt off.
HTH!
ORIGINAL: STi Rob
My question is how much of a difference will the Billstein shocks make when used with the stock springs. Im looking to improve the feel and handling perfromance of the car but I realy dont wantto lower it due to it being my daily driver. Any input or personal experience will be greatly appreciated.
Thx,
Rob
My question is how much of a difference will the Billstein shocks make when used with the stock springs. Im looking to improve the feel and handling perfromance of the car but I realy dont wantto lower it due to it being my daily driver. Any input or personal experience will be greatly appreciated.
Thx,
Rob
I can't recommend these if you have any possibility of changing your springs or bars for something with sporty intentions and I doubt you can know absolutely that they will work perfectly out of the box for you. This is the beauty of having an adjustable damper system. Rodeo Flyer and I went around on this one many moons ago and he outgrew the Billie HD'spretty quickly once he was on the track. Please listen to Sam and I when we tell you that for the money the Koni sport or Tokico D-Specs are a much better long term choice.
You never know what you might do or want to do with the car in a day ot a year from now. If two years ago you had told me I would become a big fan of playing paintball at 53 years old I would have laughed my butt off.
HTH!
They are both excellent choicesbut three years agobased on the horriblereturn ratewe used to have asa distributor of Tokico's oldfixed blue and adjustable white dampers (this was 15 years ago)I would have said Koni all the way for a DD road car and weekend track toy. After all this is what I had been installing and using on the race track for 30 years with good results. But that wasbefore I had seen and used the new (to the USA at least)D-Spec dampers in the S197GTI drivedailyand weekends in the canyons and the occassional localopen track day event. The D-Spec dampers are every bit aswell made asany of theregular production Koni or Bilstein dampers and it shows in the quality of their damper's rod finish polishing, no leak seals,generalmechanical design andassembly. I can't vouch for theregular blue and white damperlines butTokico's D-Spec line takes Tokico out of the joke catagory they onceoccupied and intotheworld class adjustable damper catagory. Tokico AFAIK is still not able to provide the same level of support as Koni in termsof race services to the average guy like Koni can but for the most partwe're not driving race cars here.
For a street car that you are not certain ofwhat itslong term sportingfuture holdsyouwant to be able to tune the dampersfor everything fromdrag strip use, road course use, street performance use or comfy street use D-Specs areIMO a better option than the Koni's. This is because while both of these dampers are adjustable and have only a single adjustment **** that one **** on a D-Spec damper adjusts bothreboundand compresssion damping rates at the same time usingcurves that weredevelopedon theS197 chassisusing sport springs. Koni Sport damperscan only be adjusted forrebound damping which is normally justfine but tends to be more narrowly tuned for road course performance with more sporting springs.This is justa limitation of having a fixed compresion damping curve as Koni has chosen to use. For amore "sport" focused use with ride being a secondary concern I'd suggest Koni Sports but for a more broadbased use I'd suggest D-Specs. I say this because Koni dampers have moreconsistent damping and that they arevalved with a reasonably well selected compression rate which works well for "sporty" use. The D-Specs on the other hand have a much broaderrange of rebound and compression damping available which wasverycarefully developed by Steeda on S197 chassis in the real world using Steeda's ownlinear rate springs onroad courses, drag strips and the street. In terms of bang for the buck and broad application with excellent ride comfort you cannot beat the D-Specs. In pure performance terms the Konis on a road course IMOwouldget the nod but lose out in most of the other catagories.
Does this help?
Cheers!
Thanks.
Every bit of info helps. Rob
04-15-2008, 08:32 AM
#27
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Posts: 69
RE: Anyone with Billstein shocks and stock springs?
ORIGINAL: Sam Strano
Honestly, I don't even see that as a contest, especially now that lowering springs have been brought into the mix.
The car needs not be used for competition purposes to make use of adjustable damping. The car weighs what it weight, and that mass is always present regardless of how you are driving it. The harder you drive, the more control you probably want over that mass. The dampers are ignorant to the fact the car is out tearing up a back-road, autoxing, tracking, or running down an interstate.
I understand the Bilstein's cost less. But in the grand scheme of things, what is flexibility worth? I think it's worth a lot if it covers you bases and allows you to tune the car and the way it acts to your liking.Damping isn't about racing, it's about control, it's about feel and there are different opinions and levels of that.Cadillac's don't feel like BMW's, mostly because of shock damping... butboth feel their way is the "best" for the job at hand. Nothing else compares to the result and change you get from great damping control.And while I think you'd find HD's to be an improvement, I don't think you'd be getting the best bang for you bucks. I still feel that'd be D-specs (literal bang for every buck) and Koni's (more polish and a bit better long term quality, so a different result for the money).
Honestly, I don't even see that as a contest, especially now that lowering springs have been brought into the mix.
The car needs not be used for competition purposes to make use of adjustable damping. The car weighs what it weight, and that mass is always present regardless of how you are driving it. The harder you drive, the more control you probably want over that mass. The dampers are ignorant to the fact the car is out tearing up a back-road, autoxing, tracking, or running down an interstate.
I understand the Bilstein's cost less. But in the grand scheme of things, what is flexibility worth? I think it's worth a lot if it covers you bases and allows you to tune the car and the way it acts to your liking.Damping isn't about racing, it's about control, it's about feel and there are different opinions and levels of that.Cadillac's don't feel like BMW's, mostly because of shock damping... butboth feel their way is the "best" for the job at hand. Nothing else compares to the result and change you get from great damping control.And while I think you'd find HD's to be an improvement, I don't think you'd be getting the best bang for you bucks. I still feel that'd be D-specs (literal bang for every buck) and Koni's (more polish and a bit better long term quality, so a different result for the money).
With this being said Im back to Koni or Tokico, I know I said that before but this supension stuff throws me through a loop.
Sam I will email you laterto get a price on which shocks and springs I decide on (already decided on springs).
Thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread, I appreciate all of the help.
Rob
04-15-2008, 05:25 PM
#28
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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RE: Anyone with Billstein shocks and stock springs?
I don't want it to throw you for a loop, and I'll do my best to help you understand. However, like any decision that's close (and frankly the Koni vs. D-spec decision is to me when all factors are considered), the "right" answer won't just present itself to you.
Here's how I figure it. Neither is wrong, other dampers would leave some doubt to me, but these each have pro's and con's but are far superior to most other things around. I'm pretty adamant about trying to stop folks from making a mistake, and I would tell you (nicely) that if you were considering stay normal Tokico's that you're nuts.
But you aren't nuts, and I won't knock the D-specs were a pleasant surprise to me vs. Tokico's of the past. But there are still some niggly issues that I spoke of before and I prefer using Koni's for this car (just slightly), and certainly think they are the better company if you need product support. That would make my decision, and has. Maybe you need to look at the downsides vs. the upsides of each instead of trying to just compare pro to pro.
In the end, I'm curious if this is about cost? I'm of the mind that when the figure isn't hundreds and hundreds of dollars that something as important and longterm as quality dampers shouldn't beskimped on. Also, just as a reality check.... let's think about what those Kooks headers cost vs. something cheaper. And a header is a loteasier thing to make, but you stillbought top ofthe line despite many hundreds of dollars difference on an item that really doesn't havethe dynamic effect that dampers do.
Again,Ican't and won't tell you that you are making a mistake either way youopt togo. I can't really add much more by e-mail, I might be able to somehow make better sense by phone. I sellboth, soI don't really care which way you goin the "whatcan I sell him" sense. I want the best product on the car, here that could be either.... I don't really have a great sense ofhow firm is too firm, what kind of cars you like or dislike to compare to, etc.PM's and e-mail (or mail mail forthat matter) are not goodways of conveying feeling, inflection and those things do matter when it comes to decision time.
Here's how I figure it. Neither is wrong, other dampers would leave some doubt to me, but these each have pro's and con's but are far superior to most other things around. I'm pretty adamant about trying to stop folks from making a mistake, and I would tell you (nicely) that if you were considering stay normal Tokico's that you're nuts.
But you aren't nuts, and I won't knock the D-specs were a pleasant surprise to me vs. Tokico's of the past. But there are still some niggly issues that I spoke of before and I prefer using Koni's for this car (just slightly), and certainly think they are the better company if you need product support. That would make my decision, and has. Maybe you need to look at the downsides vs. the upsides of each instead of trying to just compare pro to pro.In the end, I'm curious if this is about cost? I'm of the mind that when the figure isn't hundreds and hundreds of dollars that something as important and longterm as quality dampers shouldn't beskimped on. Also, just as a reality check.... let's think about what those Kooks headers cost vs. something cheaper. And a header is a loteasier thing to make, but you stillbought top ofthe line despite many hundreds of dollars difference on an item that really doesn't havethe dynamic effect that dampers do.
Again,Ican't and won't tell you that you are making a mistake either way youopt togo. I can't really add much more by e-mail, I might be able to somehow make better sense by phone. I sellboth, soI don't really care which way you goin the "whatcan I sell him" sense. I want the best product on the car, here that could be either.... I don't really have a great sense ofhow firm is too firm, what kind of cars you like or dislike to compare to, etc.PM's and e-mail (or mail mail forthat matter) are not goodways of conveying feeling, inflection and those things do matter when it comes to decision time.
04-15-2008, 09:47 PM
#29
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
RE: Anyone with Billstein shocks and stock springs?
STiRob
The other thing to consider is availabilty. Check on when the Koni's will be in stock versus delivery on the Tokico D Spec's.
Last I saw Koni's were in short supply, probably due to their havng to catch up after the recall https://mustangforums.com/m_4676127/tm.htm
The other thing to consider is availabilty. Check on when the Koni's will be in stock versus delivery on the Tokico D Spec's.
Last I saw Koni's were in short supply, probably due to their havng to catch up after the recall https://mustangforums.com/m_4676127/tm.htm
04-16-2008, 10:58 AM
#30
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
RE: Anyone with Billstein shocks and stock springs?
That at times has been a non-issue. As a matter of fact I had some Koni's in stock up until just yesterday... and more are due in by early May. But yes, right now I can't even give you a set of Koni's, but have D-specs hanging around. 