Poco

Beside the dampners(as everybody mentioned) I wish FRPP would include some adjustable end links for the sway bar.The factory end links are ok but seem to lack diameter for rigidity. Steeda supplies an assortment of end links.

S197steve

Legion, thanks for all of the info. I hadn't really considered Saleen as an option, but decided to do some research on their suspension packages. While the few end user reviews I've read tend to agree that it's an improvement over the stock package, they car rags don't rave about it the way you do:

Motor Trend: Armed with a 3.73:1 axle ratio, the Saleen, with its power advantage, paid dividends at the dragstrip, going 0 to 60 in 5.1 seconds and the quarter mile in 13.7 at 102.1 mph. Around the skidpad and figure eight, though, the S281, utilizing a "Racecraft Suspension" with linear-rate coil springs, a larger 35mm front anti-roll bar, and N2 dampers, exhibited poor grip and posted a slow time. Observes technical editor Kim Reynolds: "The Saleen exhibits a lot of understeer in these tests and seems resistant to rotation."

Car & Driver: Once you hit the mountains, the car's extroverted appearance is thoroughly backed up by the Saleen Racecraft suspension, which has tuned spring and bar rates along with urethane bushings and nitrogen-pressurized shocks, as well as by the optional 20-inch Pirelli P Zero Rosso tires on 10-inch-wide Saleen-designed chrome alloys, which provide reassuring turn-in and midcorner grip. The S281's ride is firm, with some fairly sudden, although small, vertical disturbances, and it takes quite a smooth stretch of pavement to get it all settled down.

I realize they are just their opinions but they are both well respected names in the auto journalism industry.

Are you talking about the normal everyday Saleen kit you can buy off the shelf when you're referencing those performance claims in your original post?

Thanks.

jayel579

Very smart of you, now read Grassroots Motorsports. You will get even more unfiltered opinions of any car regardless of what it is. If these guys don't like a car they have no problem slamming it.

Sam Strano

I've run both Koni Sport and D-specs on my own stuff. Have also sold, used, tried, etc. other shocks ranging from Tokico Blues, FRPP, Stock GT, Stock Bullitt, to Bilstein, Roush, and other thinks like KW's, and soon a set of AST's we'll be testing.

The issue I have with Saleen is simple. They aren't a viable option, and fwiw they've had issues (remember the Saleen Watts link recall?). I'm not saying a Saleen suspension sucks, it doesn't--but I feel you can do better and have tuning options too. And fwiw, the dampers are the key where ride quality is concerned. Saleen springs aren't all that special (I know the specs and who makes them). The dampers are non-adjustable Bilstein's (with their own valving). And the front bar is not adjustable either. And there is no rear bar in their kit--and the car is already understeer prone. When I upgrade to a 35mm front bar, I do it in conjunction with a 22mm rear, not the stock 20mm (or worse on a convertible an 18mm). That only makes the car tighter.

The quotes in a above post regarding the road test is exactly why I don't like the Saleen option. The dampers lack rebounding damping (which is why the car doesn't settle down and take a set quickly), and the front bar only is why the balance is even more pushy. I completely concur with both statements.

And Legion5 is again living a dream world. Pirelli Corsa tires are R-comps, not true street tires like BFG KD's, and they help the numbers a lot. FWIW, the treadwear rating on a Pirelli Corsa: 60. Treadwear on a BFG KD? I seem to recall it was about 200-220. You don't have to believe me when I say he's full of crap, look them up and compare for yourself. A blurb about the Corsa's from TireRack's website:

"The P Zero Corsa is Pirelli's DOT-legal Competition tire primarily developed for use on high performance cars at drivers' schools and lapping days conducted on race tracks. The P Zero Corsa incorporates Pirelli's racing experience to enhance driving satisfaction at the limits of performance.

The P Zero Corsa is molded with 6/32" of tread depth in its grooves and is available unshaved for use on damp tracks or shaved to between 3/32" to 4/32" of tread depth for use on dry tracks.

Caution: The P Zero Corsa is not recommended for driving on extremely wet roads where there is the risk of hydroplaning. This is especially true of shaved or worn tires. Drivers should drive cautiously at reduced speeds in these conditions."

Further, when Legion is up on his soapbox about my "advertisement" he's just spouting talking points (and not accurately at all fwiw). He states that Saleen stuff is more comfortable than any Eibach car he's been in. Fine, but he doesn't say which Eibach's (it matters), or what dampers those cars were on (and if adjustable where they were set). And that doesn't even touch on things like the differences between things like unsprung weight between the subjects.

I'm usually pretty laid back about this stuff, but there is always one guy like Legion5 on every site who claims to have all the answers and will spin things his way to make the answer fit the question. Case in point, again is the fact he either doesn't know Pirelli Corsa's are not at all like KD's, or he does know and is trying to snow someone.

Sleeper_08

Sam your memory is pretty good - per Tire Rack BFG KDs are rated at 200.

Rubrignitz

Grassroots is an awesome publication. They sent me a complimentary august 08' "birth of a series" (mustang challenge) issue and I was instantly hooked. Purchased a subscription that same week. Great mag!

Legion5

SAM why are you being an *******

The tires I use as my favorite when I take my car out on a track are corsas I've measured them very specifically against the Pirelli PZero max performance tires (also v the base Rossos) which have a wear rating of 160 and 60 (look it up) these are the stock Saleen Extreme tires.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.j...irePageLocQty=

there's very little (less than .1g) handling numbers benefit with Corsas compared to the stock extreme tires, also Novitech Rosso uses corsas on their Ferraris stock and in various magazine tests they were shown to give little to no performance benefit compared to Pzero Max Performance tires.

Compared to the Rossos I've measured a 3.2% increase in grip with the Corsas and the extreme tires are similar. Even if you notice the handling benefit of the Corsas the handling benefit of the heavier Saleen is still within the order of magnitude of the d-spec car by far.

Most of what Corsas do is improve responsiveness (to the effect of being night and day FYI).

So we're comparing a tire that's slightly better than a Rosso to a tire that's in a class above the Rosso and has better stats.

And here's the biggest issue:

you're looking at the wrong tire including all your quotes. Pirelli has both of these models named Corsa:




Honestly I'm just mad at the way you responded to that "crap" umm yeah. I don't care if you thought I posted a car with racing tires.

Also saleen does not understeer more than stock despite it's specs on the bars, it's about the same overall with fewer problem areas. Steeda and FRPP do understeer less but the way the understeer comes on does not hurt performance to matter that much, it's just a flavor which some people may or may not like (though beginners may prefer) and if that's such an amazingly huge issue get the saleen extreme watts link rear sway bar which I highly recommend.

i don't even run Saleen and have had no affiliation with them for over 5 months. I'm bringing up valid points and you well anyone can read your own post.

Legion5

Motortrend is run by a bunch of driving enthusiasts not driving scienstists or professional race car drivers or suspension engineers. Their data is accurate but their conclusions should only be used as a guide line. The time it takes for the Saleen suspension to settle down is a very real factor, it's the most proper way to achieve both performance and comfort, if you don't do it you have to sacrifice either performance or comfort, by increasing dampening you get the shock all at once, and by reducing the bounce of the car which causes this you reduce grip. Almost everyone without prior knowledge of this phenomenon will think it's a horrible thing to make the car do.

Eibach is basically very harsh. When some one calls the saleen suspension "firm" from car and driver that's not a bad thing, here's what the same magazine had to say about the full Eibach-FRPP kit in an article. Car & Driver: suspension is lousy enough that one tester compared the whole package to a 20-year-old pickup truck.

That's a well respected name for you.

If you look up Roush vs Saleen shoot out (it's a video) that should give you a lot of info about how some one that drives cars for real and doesn't play around feels. This is the space where my opinions stem from. I don't rate things on how fast it feels but rather how fast it IS.

A car that understeers a bit may feel like an every day car and therefore slow, but it can be extremely fast if that understeer doesn't dig into the grip by a large amount and minor understeer is a preferred setup by people I'm friends with both pro race car drivers and club ones to quote one driver: "with understeer you know where you are going to go off, with oversteer the car takes you where it wants to go". The fact is that F1 cars and pretty much everything that's pro and road races is preferred to have some understeer theoretically becuase it's easier to drive and geometrically quicker around a corner than neutral handling plus any oversteer.

Despite being fast the rear sway off the watts link makes it even more so and it feels better to drive with one but is less safe.

S197steve

Thanks for all of the info guys, I appreciate the comments from all involved... I just hope we don't have to call Dayna White in to set up a fight to the death! :-)

I was telling my buddy about this discussion and it turns out that he has Saleen shocks/struts plus H&R springs... I thought he was Bilstein all the way around. His car handles great and rides pretty decently as well. For some reason I thought he'd put lots more $$ into his suspension set up. The interesting thing is that he didn't need to use camber bolts or adjustable panhard bar with that set up. He said everything lined up perfectly when the new springs were put on and he's had absolutely no tire wear issues.

I think I'm going to go that route as well as I'm not a club racer (with cars anyways) and only plan on doing a few trackdays a year. I don't want anything too extreme for daily driving and don't want to drop thousands of $$ into the suspension.

If I get the full Saleen kit (10-1300-A11503) do you all think I'll need to get camber bolts and adjustable panhard bar?

Norm Peterson

I think I've finally figured out what you're trying to say here. I also think you have more options than just a simple binary choice. With essentially linear damping, you can't do any better than hit an acceptable compromise, but that's not the only available approach.


Huh???

Stream of consciousness writing style + something missing = too confusing to untangle, let alone agree or disagree with. Care to try again?


Just to set the record straight, it appears that the P Zero Corsa (second picture) is being phased out, as Tire Rack lists only two sizes with an inventory of less then 7 tires combined. Neither Pirelli's US site nor their International site even mentions this tire any more, although the P Zero Corsa System appears on both (as well as at Tire rack). Never mind that both the Corsa and the Corsa System tires are 60 treadwear with the exception of one or perhaps two Corsa sizes that were molded with greater tread depth. P Zero Corsas have been specifically excluded from use in the SCCA Street Touring categories on the basis of treadwear rating, for whatever that might imply. I didn't bother trying to figure out how that might affect any disputes, so that little bit of research isn't intended as support for either position.


I don't think this discussion is really about understeer vs oversteer. I doubt that many here have driven a car whose basic handling characteristic was oversteer, and I'm quite certain that any who haven't would hate it (and likely crash) if they ended up with it. This is just about how much understeer. There's way more to this than springs/bars/shocks, although tweaking those is among the more convenient means available to shift the handling balance.


Internet filtering here at work allow me to find links to that video but not watch it. Since it apparently is a produced video, which implies editing, that means that it is not necessarily free of bias either.


Norm